Therapy And Women Who Don't Want Children

Sufferix · 2014-03-15T06:44:59+00:00

If you are at the point where therapy is needed and you need a third party to talk to each other it's already done.

Sufferix · 2014-03-15T08:56:21+00:00

I have once gone to a couple's therapy session. The purpose of it was to get me and my ex-wife on more reasonable terms before a child custody hearing. The reason we were not on good terms is because my ex was and is to this day one of the biggest pieces of shit I have ever known in my life. Even her own mother now seems to like me more than her, or in any event prefers that I have custody.

Anyway the couple's therapy was a total shit show. The therapist's great reconciliation strategy was to have us "just focus on the present." And a big point is to "limit judgment." So the ex goes on about this prick thing and that prick thing I did to her recently, but doesn't call me a name or anything, she just "explains how it made her feel."

So I start to explain my attitude and actions by explaining some shitty things the ex had done in the past that were related to them. I didn't agree to do x because I don't trust her, and I don't trust her because of x,y,z,w,... And I don't really want to be there anyway, so I don't bother to frame everything in "non-blaming" language. The results are predictable: I am told that the past is "off limits" for the conversation, to stop blaming, etc.

It was beyond "hamstering." It was a weird verbal game where anything explicitly relating to accountability was deliberately rejected as a matter for discussion. What the therapist wanted was a conversation that went something like this: "You did this and that made me feel X," "Well you did that and that made me feel Y," "Well I think that if you did Z instead that would make me feel W," etc. It was not a game that I was interested in playing.

And the thing is, despite all their "non-judgmental" language, all of the statements being made were about things I had done and how shitty it made my poor ex feel. And I was not allowed to place anything in its proper context. I was not allowed to bring up the long, long list of shitty things my ex had done in the past which clearly demonstrate the fact that she is insanely manipulative, cruel, and borderline psychopathic.

The therapist was totally out of her depth. She had a preconceived notion of how the "healing" conversation would go, having no idea that my ex and I are both very different cookies compared to the kind of people she was used to dealing with.

So while my ex worked her flawlessly, I tried to tell the therapist what was happening and who she was dealing with, until I realized the situation was pointless and became very non-responsive. The therapist then asked me if I enjoyed holding onto anger, in that irritating "non-judgmental" tone which is ultimately just a condescending way to goad you into a reaction. I said, "fuck yes," and walked out of the room. Never went to another session, never would.

I've heard other people say they've had good couple's therapists, but when I went it was a pointless waste of time. If you do decide to do it, be ready to play the game, and keep in mind that the rules of the game will probably be stacked against you.

As for standard, one-on-one therapy, I have no personal experience (and in fact I don't know any man who does--but lots of women seem to). I know some people who it has helped, and some people who it has worsened. For people who are not naturally self-aware, or people who have deluded themselves for egotistical reasons, an "objective" third party observer who will tactfully call you out on your shit is a good thing.

On the other hand, it seems to me that therapists more often just serve as a shoulder to cry on, or worse.

2014-03-15T17:18:13+00:00

Couple's therapy is a joke. Women don't want to hear your problems. Going to a therapist that is set up especially for this purpose seems like relationship suicide. Therapy of other kinds can work. I see a therapist at the VA for PTSD. I prefer male to female therapists, obviously. Female therapists tend to have a higher EQ, and I feel that they are more manipulators than therapists. The therapists at the VA help you make the right decisions, but they'd be worthless if you weren't primarily interested in fixing yourself.

FinnianWhitefir · 2014-03-15T05:48:54+00:00

It honestly helped me a ton. I wouldn't go back for any amount of money. 3 years ago I was super codependent, social anxiety, zero real-life friends, scared of everything, never did anything for myself. I was still successful in IT, a smart person, and capable of living my life how I thought I wanted to live it.

I went to one male therapist who was new and completely useless. I went to another, a very analytical male therapist who was great at questioning all the weird assumptions I was making, forced me to put into words the things I thought, and most importantly, forced me to be present and communicative and challenging to a strong male role model.

See, half of therapy is just learning how to be present with another person, how to actually feel and communicate your emotions and thoughts, and how to have a back-and-forth conversation. Tons of people in this world are just not able to do that. As someone with a nearly-absent dad, I think some level of transference and learning how to communicate to a father-figure male role model and to learn to say no to him was a huge part of it.

I had a number of breakthroughs, I was able to recognize some things I had 'learned' and taken to heart that were wrong, and able to see the bad motivations I had way deep down. I.E. whenever I would attempt anything as a young child I would fail in my first attempt and get criticized and isolated, leading me to learn that trying things is super risky and painful, and therefor shy away from ever doing something new.

I also tried a female therapist who does EMDR and found it was 99% "feel good bullshit" that we ban on TRP. "Awww, you shouldn't feel that", "You are a great person", etc. Nothing that actually helped me understand things or fix things. Because of that, I'd recommend males concentrate on getting male therapists. Dr Drew in the past has recommended that males like me who are super disconnected from emotions and relationship find "mother-figure" therapists because that is who they have issues with and who they need to have a good relationship with.

However, I also believe that the majority of "therapy" that goes on in the world is useless. I think there are a lot of people using it as a whining complain session, as a replacement for them not having friends that they can be honest and open with, and I think there is a ton of long-term work where the therapist is mostly cashing a check. My whole mentality was "I'm coming here to a doctor, I've got issues that I'm not happy with, I'm going to fix them and be completely healthy at the end".

I believe couple's therapy is very unlikely to work because one person likely has personal issues that they need to resolve, and you aren't going to resolve those in a therapy that concentrates on the relationship. If people are desperate and able, I could see each person doing their own therapy and also having a couple's therapy and that being a stop-gap to keep them together, but I think you'd get just as much help from one or both doing their own. The reason it comes up so often is it's hard to go "Person X is the one with issues, they need to go into therapy to fix them" and also the other person is someone who picked Person X, so they need to look at why they did that.

Doing my armchair therapist I would worry/assume that women who don't want kids, when so many have such a strong ingrained biological drive to have them, have some issue leading to that. Could be they are super selfish. Could be they were traumatized in childhood and subconsciously don't want to put another through that. While I'm sure it happens, it's hard to imagine a woman raised in a healthy and happy home who grew up to get married in a good relationship and didn't want kids.

MetacognitiveMan · 2014-03-15T07:51:57+00:00

Individual psychotherapy can be useful, but you have to do the work yourself. The therapist can really only guide you.

I would argue that most therapists aren't good at their jobs and went into psychology because they had issues with themselves, so ruthlessly screen them. If one doesn't click or seems to not be working out, next them.

My experience with marriage therapy as a means of fixing a marriage is it is useless. But if you do end up having to go, avoid taking things personally and keep an eye on the big picture. My marriage therapy didn't do anything directly positive in our relationship. But because of it, I recognized that my wife has a lot of Borderline Personality Disorder behaviors and have been able to adjust myself to keep the marriage going in an acceptable direction.

If a woman says she doesn't want kids, assume she will change her mind at some point.

tr8 · 2014-03-15T10:23:42+00:00

What is your take on therapy? Is it useful in any sense? Does it matter on whether a female or male therapist is involved?

A therapist is probably no better than any other person.

Dawes (social and decision sciences, Carnegie Mellon Univ.) presents a strong argument, based on empirical research, that psychotherapy is largely a shill game. He argues that while studies have shown that empathetic therapy is often helpful to people in emotional distress, there is no evidence that licensed psychologists or psychiatrists are any better at performing therapy than minimally trained laypeople.

However, those are averages. There may be truly gifted people who can offer deep insight. They'd be hard to find among the tens of thousands of useless psych degrees awarded yearly though.

What about women who don't want kids?

Broken or lying. Perhaps also to herself.

TRPcoach-therapist · 2014-03-15T13:36:01+00:00

What is your take on therapy? Is it useful in any sense?

Clearly I'm biased. Therapy can be absolutely valuable. A good therapist or psychologist can be an exceptionally awesome partner in helping you become empowered and the man you want to be. A good therapist can help you discover something in a few sessions that might otherwise take you 6-12 months to discover on your own.

The quality of therapy you can get from a professional, like any other profession, varies greatly on the quality, skill, and perspective of your therapist and whether or not they are a match for you.

Does it matter on whether a female or male therapist is involved?

Irrelevant in my experience, I have met incompetent and talented therapists of both genders.

Is couple's therapy the epitome of useless?

No. Again, results vary by therapist. I've met some amazing women couples therapists who will call the "wife" out in a heartbeat and do it in a way for the "wife" to be able to hear her. I've found that in couple's therapy it is better to have a woman therapist so the "wife" can't hamster b/c the therapist is a man.

What about women who don't want kids?

What about them?

EDIT: Admittedly, like many things in western culture, therapy as a field is very feminized that doesn't negate the value of the process.

MegMartinson · 2014-03-15T17:25:17+00:00

"Therapy And Women Who Don't Want Children"

The headline suggests that there is something wrong with not wanting children. If that is the assertion, I'd respectfully disagree with the premise.

I would suppose, however, that if before marriage or other committment if the couple had agreed to have children, then she decides after that that she does not want them, then therapy may have some benefit, if only to enlighten both participants on what caused the change of heart.

2014-03-15T19:19:44+00:00

I have little to no idea what therapy is actually like, but I've always found that conversations can sometimes help you understand better the worries that brought you to the need of therapy. Locked away only in your mental process, an idea takes a form that doesn't consider what it looks or sounds like externally. Hearing and seeing an idea adds more brain power to the consideration of the idea.

My therapy consists of good friends, writing, and I've just begun to even draw my ideas. I can do this alone because I've already realized the power I possess and the fearlessness that is required to move forward in life.

leftajar · 2014-03-15T21:03:31+00:00

Individual Psychotherapy generally provides two things:

First, an empathetic listener. Now, this does have real value. Most people don't have great relationships, so they suffer a lack of being genuinely listened to by someone else. The therapist fills this role.

Second, a therapist will continuously help a person to reframe his/her own experience in a helpful, empowering way.

People have a tendency to assign negative meaning to their own experience, even when it isn't true. The therapist will gently correct the patient, reassigning a more accurate and positive meaning to the events in question. This is the basis of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) -- it's a way of replacing shitty thoughts with better thoughts. There, now you don't need to go get your PhD.

What's my take on therapy? It can be really helpful. However, for a person who is very self-honest and has good self-awareness, not necessary.

For instance, I meditate a lot, and I do a lot of self-reflection. I'm ruthlessly honest with myself about why things go the way they do. A therapist wouldn't have a lot to reframe with me. I'm doing it for myself.

Now, couples therapy:

The PREMISE of couples therapy is good: an impartial 3rd party helps to mediate disputes and coach both people on good, fair communication.

However, the CONTEXT of couples therapy is usually that one partner has lost attraction for the other.

In PRACTICE, couples counseling almost always fails because of that simple fact. The couple is in there because one party has lost attraction (usually the woman.) But the counselor is incapable of teaching the man to behave in a more attractive way, because it isn't politically correct and this mostly goes down in front of the woman. Usually they just coach the guy to be a better-communicating beta.

The style of communication taught in couples therapy is inherently feminine. No clinical couples therapist will tell a man to communicate in a RP way.

The more I think about it, the more I think couples counseling is retarded and a waste of money. Redpill knowledge renders couples counseling moot.

Women who don't want kids...? What does this have to do with therapy?

1independentmale · 2014-03-18T20:08:09+00:00

On individual therapy: Sure, it can be useful. I've been seeing a psychologist every other week for the past couple of months. Not because there is anything wrong with me, but because it's good to bounce my thoughts off someone who is trained in human psychology and behavior. I think of it like a checkup for the mind. He gives me an outsider's perspective and fresh, new insight into my behavior and that of the people around me.

As my RP ideas continue to become more deeply embedded into who I am, I worry that I might be taking it too far. What we're doing here is incredibly counter-culture and it sometimes causes me concern and inner turmoil. At this morning's session, he told me, "If my wife and I ever divorced, I think I would be much more like you." That was refreshing to hear. It validated my beliefs.

On couple's therapy: I spent years doing marriage counseling on and off with my ex. Mostly, it was a waste of time. If you're getting dragged there because she thinks something is wrong and needs fixing, you might as well just dump her ass and save the money. The female therapists only wanted to talk about her feelings and how I was supposed to change my behavior to accommodate said feelings even though they had no logical basis in reality. Crock of shit. The one male therapist she hired - a Christian counselor on staff at a local church, no less - white-knighted the fuck out of her. He said, and I quote, "If she likes to spend money, let her spend money. This is your marriage at stake here. Going into debt to keep her happy is worth it if it saves your marriage." I quoted what his own bible had to say about debt (nothing good) and the idiot tried to rationalize himself. I walked out mid-session and never returned (didn't pay him for that session, either. Fuck him.)

That said, there was one therapist I absolutely enjoyed seeing. She was a woman, but she seemed to understand men very well. She got right to the root of our issues, squarely blamed my ex, and asked me (right in front of my ex), "Why are you still with her? Most men would have left her by now." Needless to say, my ex didn't want to see that therapist much after that, but I was elated. It validated my perspective on the relationship. After the divorce, I went back to this therapist for a couple of individual sessions and she told me, "I was wondering when you would get tired of her shit and leave. I knew it was only a matter of time from the moment I met you two."

On women who don't want kids: They're rare and hard to find. Most women who say they don't want kids are full of shit. Once that biological clock starts ticking, they hamster those thoughts away as if they never existed. I have a vasectomy and don't want more kids, so any woman who wants to be with me has to accept this.

BluepillProfessor · 2014-04-20T02:31:40+00:00

Couple's therapy is all about changing the man to meet the feminine imperative. There needs to be a 'Red Pill' couple's certification before I will ever go to couples therapy again.

Read MMSL and the MAP before you waste a second in couples therapy.

deepthrill · 2014-03-15T15:11:41+00:00

What is your take on therapy? Is it useful in any sense? Does it matter on whether a female or male therapist is involved?

I've got extensive experience with therapy. It is useful, but it has limitations.

Con's:

Getting a proper diagnosis is... Difficult. Often, the "diagnosis" is merely a symptom.
Though it shouldn't, the character of the therapist matters, as does the therapist's personal philosophies. Getting a good match is difficult.
The sex of the therapist is very important. I've gone to both male and female therapists, and while I've had good and bad experiences with both, the females had a distinctly female take on therapy. The male one's tended to push me more and to be more provocative; "tough love" if you will. The females tended to be more gentle and mostly tried to make me feel good about myself, as opposed to actually helping me fix my shit. The male approach is better suited to helping males I think, though it is more painful. The female approach... IDK. It's not useless as triage if you're really down the gutter, but it's less valuable in the long run.
Therapy is manipulation. A good therapist is aware of this and tries to minimize doing anything that changes your fundamental character that isn't blatantly unhealthy, but we're all human, and different people make different judgements as to what that is... Therapy is therefore risky. You need both humility and strength of character to be able to take in that which does you good and disregard that which does you bad.

Pro's:

Therapists are often good at helping you get some perspective, basically seeing the forest instead of just the trees.
Therapists (that know what they're doing) can give you tools with which you fix your own problems.
Therapists (that know what they're doing) can help you push through painful dissonances.
Therapy can save you a lot of time when it comes to getting rid of hang-ups and phobias.

Good to know:

Therapy isn't a panacea; it takes time and effort and if the therapist knows what he's doing, it's porbably also very painful. Things are likely to get worse (emotionally) before they get better.
Therapy only works if you're suceptible to it. For that to be the case, you need to desire to fix your problems, and not to merely want to feel better about yourself. That distinction is important and it is not easy to differentiate between them on an emotional level.
To be able to desire to fix your problems, you also need to be aware, on all levels, that you've got problems. This isn't as straight forward as it seems, because one's ego tends to get in the way of that. Therapy, just like self-improvement, requires huge humility.

Is couple's therapy the epitome of useless?

Edited.

If the goal is to save the relationship, then, in 99% of the cases, yes, I think so, because if it's gone that far, it's usually too late, and that's even if you disregard the fact that most couple's therapists are hopeless blue pills.

If the therapist isn't a hopeless blue pill and saving the relationship is secondary to fixing faulty perceptions on how males and females work in relationships, then it can be useful.

What about women who don't want kids?

Damaged goods. Women need babies; They need to carry them, nurse them and care for them, in much the same way men need to fuck. It's a physical need, and if it's not fullfilled, mental health problems will ensue.

If they don't want kids from their own free will, they're damaged and/or brain washed, and liable to change their minds, and/or having their conscious minds over-ridden by their bodies, thus "forgetting" to take the pill or whatever.

If they're physically incapable, they're still bound to have all manner of mental problems.

Message to visitors from TBP:

Hi! You made my day! That thread is hilarious! It really brightened my mood, and that is going to facilitate my plan for tonight, which is to pickup a teen girl and having my way with her, rawr ;-)

Muah,

/Daddy-"it hurts so good"-Monster

RejectionEquality · 2014-03-15T06:04:00+00:00

Therapy is mostly poppycock, but I'm rich, good-looking, and have always taken good care of myself and my shit, so I've never "needed" it. I still contend that the word "need" is still a stretch. Most people that "need" a psychiatrist strike me as lazy, bluepill, codependent, validation-seeking, or attention-whoring (the ones that weren't appointed or "prescribed" it, that is).

(Physical therapy is of course an entirely different matter, and my heart goes out to those that need it.)

People's minds are unhealthy because for the most part, they aren't studying what they really need to be studying: science. Yes, I really do think a good introductory course in physics under a really good teacher will do a ton of good for the mind, not to mention equip you with tools that you will use the rest of your life. Basic finance would be nice, too.

Yeah, right. Both woefully underappreciated. And really good teachers are pretty much nonexistent anymore, last I checked.

I've known a number of people that were undergoing therapy. They had one thing in common: they would believe just about anything. One girl insisted that ghosts were real, and that one was always around her, protecting her. It was completely obvious to me that she was doing it for attention. Not so obvious to everyone else, apparently.

But after dating a dirt-stupid girl for a while, I realized that education is a hopeless war and that the human race will soon be finished due to its own negligence, indifference, and willful ignorance.

I don't think that the gender of a therapist would make any difference, because I think it's pretty much feminized through and through. When was the last time you flipped through a self-help book?

Yes, couples therapy is the epitome of useless.

I do not want children so badly that I got a vasectomy as soon as the opportunity arose.

My experiences with /r/childfree is that the women are mostly batshit insane, feminist, and entitled, just like any other (except that the batshit types really seem to flock to childfree, which is unfortunate). Lots of privilege there, too. I'd say some of it is well-earned. Lots of STEM Ph.D.'s and brighter-than-most atheists in that community. Lots of career women that are out to prove a point.

I've tried picking up childfree women. It's ... kind of a joke. Same sort of entitled attitudes but with more standoffishness, bordering on being anti-copulation. Now there's an exercise in frustration.

"You don't want kids and neither do I! Let's fuck strictly for pleasure! Wait, what the fuck do you mean 'no?' Oh, you're asexual?"

Sometimes mentioning my vasectomy after they've established that they don't want kids can be kind of a turn-on for both of us. But still haven't had a lot of luck getting over their shitty attitudes and undertones of misandry.

Not surprisingly, they are usually very attached to Feminism.

YouDislikeMyOpinion · 2014-03-16T03:41:16+00:00

Short answer: within a huge number of sexual strategies, any need for relationship therapy or a number of preceding ailments equals the death and failure of that sexual strategy in your relationship.

Simple/stupid elaboration: Wife not turned on by husband, therapy won't help turn him into a man or make him fuck her well, or any other number of things.

2014-03-16T19:48:33+00:00

i gave my view here.

If you don't have a support group mature enough to help you push trough, it is beneficial, but in most ways a couple of receptive guy friends will be more beneficial.

Both male and female therapist will give you the female treatment, that is the best the industry has to offer currently.

No, couples therapy is more destructive than useless, its made primaraly to tear down emotional walls basically reducing your position to that of a infant to be at the same level as your SO in the reassuring presence of a maternal figure played by the therapist. Which as RP you understand causes grave harm to how the woman sees you afterwards. Resistance or trying to dominate the room will be reduced to not playing the game and beeing a bitch, so they aren't really options.

It is their choice, I would rather have a motherly SO than a bitch that pushes hes frustration on to the little guy, every time I'm not in the room. Disclaimer, I think conservative values are dead and gone, any future mother will have to want a kid out of pure selfishness because her feminist environment is screaming against it and we all know how weak women are when it comes to peer pressure.

iluminatiNYC · 2014-03-17T00:01:10+00:00

Therapy is what you make it, for good or ill. I think the reason therapy gets such a bad rap is because people go there who are either forced there by some circumstance, legal or personal, or expect the therapist to fix them. A good therapist can point out one's weaknesses and the root causes behind them. It's up to you to work on them.

I did therapy for about a year a few years back. I paid for it with a sliding scale, and it was worth every penny. It was like going to school on yourself, and it was definitely worth it.

InferiousX · 2014-03-17T07:05:39+00:00

On the note of women who don't want kids, I find that in many cases that's a temporary state of mind. Usually it's part of their wanting to be single and mingle "Sex in the City" lifestyle. There doesn't seem to be a consistency for age, but it seems that almost all women at some point change their mind and want a baby.

I remember my mother's friend who was in her 40s about 12 years ago. She would tell me about how she's never going to have kids because she values her time too much and wants to keep her freedom etc. Well she's well into her 50s now, and every time she talks to my mom the conversation turns to how much she regrets that she will die with no biological children.

Whisper · 2014-03-17T21:55:23+00:00

Therapy is not a science, it's an art.

Whatever benefit comes from it derives not from established procedures and systematic understanding, but from the personality and experience of the therapist.

Most therapists are crap, some aren't.

What about women who don't want kids?

What about them?

2014-03-18T19:59:14+00:00

Therapy is a waste of money.

Why? Therapy doesn't erase memories. It's not magic. All therapy does is create an environment where the patient is ultimately given certain tools, certain ways of looking at life/problems that are more positive. In that sense, therapy is incredibly valuable, as most people don't have the emotional intelligence to fuel their own growth and healing. So the therapist becomes a spiritual leader that guides the patient (through lots of self-reflection, introspection, insightful questions, etc.).

Anything I can do in therapy I can also do on my own. I can educate myself and increase my emotional intelligence (by reading very insightful self-help books like Scott Peck's The Road Less Traveled). But most people don't know that. Going to therapy is essentially borrowing power from an outside source to change/grow/etc, when really we all have that power inside us all along. If anything, therapy can harm in the sense that the patient becomes reliant on it, and never discovers his/her ability to heal on their own.

aaron_the_just · 2014-03-19T10:16:35+00:00

Individual therapy has been extremely useful for me. Essentially, she helped me learn how to control negative emotions and how to control my expression of them. One of the best things she taught me is that my negative emotions are often easily visible in my facial expressions, and she taught me techniques to clean up my act internally, which shows up on my face externally.

I don't think female therapists or male therapists are necessarily superior to the other. I do recommend one with a religious background similar to your own (or lack thereof); it helps if you both come from the same belief system. Look for someone who is either licenced (LPCC/LPCC, LISW), or is a Ph.D psychologist.

The best thing, if you can find it, is someone who specialises in cognitive behavioural therapy. Pick what you want to work on in yourself, and they'll help you not be controlled by those feelings/emotions.

Couples therapy is worse than useless. Dr Harley did a fair amount of research into this back in the 1980s, and discovered that attendance at couples therapy vs not made no difference in divorce rates. You'd be better off with Dr Harley's marriage coaching service - although they'll typically tell a couple within a few sessions that the situation isn't going to get better unless one of the partners has a sudden change of heart.

Women who don't want kids are rare. They're easy to find: they've gotten Essure. I have a friend who got Essure, and proudly carries the card to prove it. If a woman won't get Essure, part of her still wants kids.

Title	Therapy And Women Who Don't Want Children
Author	Sufferix
Upvotes	18
Comments	49
Date	March 15, 2014 3:30 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/AlreadyRed
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/AlreadyRed/comments/20ggwr/therapy_and_women_who_dont_want_children/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/AlreadyRed/therapy-and-women-who-dont-want-children.1217967 https://theredarchive.com/post/1217967

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