We Should Be Fairer to the Women Supporting Us

ElisaSKy · 2023-06-04T17:44:45+00:00

"Now, I understand why they will be skeptical about it, there are men who had bad-horrible-abysmal experiences with women (even including moms, sisters, cousins, aunts, grandmoms, etc.) and high moral wannabes call them incels for it."

Let me make 100% sure I understand your argument:

You're telling people whom you yourself acknowledge have had their trust horribly abused, and whom are getting further abuse when they say it's not cool to abuse people's trust... Events that have severely damaged their ability to trust...

That they should trust more, i.e. do the very thing that got them used and abused.

I mean, sure, you're welcome to try.

But it's gonna be a hard thing to sell until and unless these people stop hearing the message that "it's okay to abuse their trust and they're monsters for being very frugal with their trust, I mean, how are we gonna abuse their trust if they don't trust us?". And yeah, it fucking sucks when you're asked to provide mountains of evidence that you're trustworthy. But you know what? "Trustworthy" isn't the norm anymore, assuming it has ever been. When trusting you enough to say "hi" to you without 3 witnesses and a video camera catching the entire thing can get people killed or jailed or even just make you a social pariah, and I have no recourse against any of it...

I'm not gonna trust you any farther than I could throw you.

Tell me, if you lived in a world where any man could rape you and then sue you in order to make you pay him a monthly salary for 18 years because, y'know, he deserves that money for knocking you up, would you trust any man? If the answer is "no", well, the reverse is the situation men are in. You legally can rape a man and make him pay a monthly salary for 18 years on the basis that he knocked you up when you raped him. And maybe you wouldn't do it. But it is an option that is legally available to you. Meaning that, if they misjudge you and you were the kind of person to do that, they have no legal recourse and very poor extralegal recourse against you.

"It's not that all women would. It's that any woman can." None of the guys who got burned thought the women who callously destroyed them would do it, and all of them mistakenly believed Justice Would Prevail! if things went wrong, and yet, here they are.

HomeIsButADream · 2023-06-04T17:32:54+00:00

You give them more credit than they do us with the innocent until proven guilty. I find that women who post here fall into three categories. Troll, Genuine, and those looking to dig for ammunition, where as on their subreddits we are just "The Enemy" I haven't been on here long, only about three days, But the women I have witnessed have been trolls or in bad faith. I have seen first hand women escape punishment because they are women and a man, my best friend take his life for it. On the other hand I am happily married to a wonderful woman who supports our cause. So long story shortened I assume everyone is in good faith until they prove me otherwise

EvenApplication5739 · 2023-06-04T17:34:30+00:00

I've seen way too many women exploit men to believe these people are genuine. (links to onlyfans, streams, etc). Be very, very skeptical.

Zook-Cantaloupe-7970 · 2023-06-05T00:30:24+00:00

I just disagree with your vision about this sub.

It's a pretty cool place that's very low on gratuitous opposite sex bashing (compared to a sub like twox for example) but it is also a true space for men first, front and center, and not for women.

Places like this are a rare thing and I would rather keep this one that way.

phoenician_anarchist · 2023-06-05T03:08:54+00:00

It's not just about trust.

When someone with a very surface level understanding of men's issues acts like they're deep in the "movement" but only ever talks about those certain issues which are mainstream/Feminist-friendly, people tend to think they're not very genuine. This is especially so if they fall back to Feminist talking points like "toxic masculinity", "patriarchy", or intersectionalism.

When men do this, they get called out relatively quickly, but a lot of people will trip over themselves to white knight for women and defend them no matter what.

AnonJetlag · 2023-06-04T17:57:26+00:00

If they really wanted to help they’d post on female subs tbh

Cuntbag42 · 2023-06-04T20:03:29+00:00

I have yet to see a legitimate example of a woman supporting men.

That doesn't mean they don't exist, but it's absolutely fair to be extremely skeptical of an ulterior motive.

HomeIsButADream · 2023-06-04T19:27:10+00:00

One thing I have noticed. OP started this sling fest yet has been suspiciously absent from any further commentary or replies. Which makes me wonder was this an attempt to divide us further or make us look bad because we have opposing opinions..

ggleblanc2 · 2023-06-04T17:53:53+00:00

Women here don't share posts to other subreddits because they are just as banned for posting or commenting here as the men.

bottleblank · 2023-06-05T04:24:32+00:00

I'm perfectly happy to speak to receptive women about men's issues. I have no problem with them participating in the discussions. I think it's important for us all to be involved, in solving problems for men and women, because we both make up the society which steers our behaviours and contributes to the environments we have to exist and learn and grow within. We're all responsible, gender be damned, for shaping the world we expect others to experience along with us.

In theory.

However, despite my willingness to engage, it doesn't usually take very long before the "yes but it's men doing that to men" or the "but what about women?" or the "this isn't a social problem, you need therapy" to start leaking out.

The moment those jagged shards of invalidation start getting spat out of the nozzle dispensing the trickle of apparent "caring" and "understanding" and "being an ally", the trust is broken.

If you care, if you truly care, you'll listen. You won't just deflect and accuse and assign blame. You won't sit there picking holes in men's stories and experiences, or measuring them against women's issues, or forcing men to have to justify their pain, their suffering, their loneliness, their depression, their traumas.

I'm not suggesting that we hold no responsibility for putting effort into helping ourselves, or seeking help, or trying to avoid falling into ever darker places, but if you're going to show up here and within half a page of discussion you're firing off feminist clichés, you're not here for the right reasons and, even if you think you are, you're already doing more harm than good.

FormalCombination538 · 2023-06-05T16:22:30+00:00

I don’t trust anyone. It’s not necessary “women vs men”. I don’t know you and I don’t trust you. Do I have trust issues? I also don’t have issues with other people not trusting everything I say. I don’t take it as men hating.

Even though I don’t trust anyone, I am willing hear anyone, even if it doesn’t make me feel good. May be I will learn something new or get a different perspective.

Since you are bringing up “not trusting women”, consider those TikTok gym videos where some “influencers” with many followers accuse men of harassment. Most if not all are false. I don’t think any man wants his life destroyed. So next time I go to the gym and see some woman with a camera, i will walk around. I don’t care how supportive she is about my comments. I simply don’t want my life destroyed. Call it self preservation.

Neither_Still8887 · 2023-06-04T17:26:46+00:00

Totally agree. This isn't a war of men v women. Feeding into divide and conquer is silly.

Angryasfk · 2023-06-05T14:34:48+00:00

There are those who post here who do seem to have an issue with women.

Many of them are clearly trolls seeking to put offensive comments on this sub in an attempt to have the sub banned. So please be aware of that.

Of the legit posts/comments: firstly there are a lot of guys who’ve been destroyed in divorces, denied custody or even access to their kids, smashed financially etc. Is it surprising that these guys are jaded? Is it surprising they find it hard to trust women? I think we can treat a woman whose been pack raped by some a*seholes, or abused most of her life by real DHs being fearful with men with some compassion. It’s those, who often have not been subjected to such abuse, that go around blaming all men for such crimes and calling female dominance “equality” that should be given no support. Surely the same courtesy can be extended to men whose lives have been destroyed by vengeful or malicious women and a system geared to enabling them! Particularly when they’re then told by these people that they’re “privileged”!

Secondly this sub has a lot of “Incels” and “MGTOW” (MGTOW is a direct response from the above btw) because the incel and MGTOW subs were banned. So they come here as about the only place when they can vent their frustration or “spread the word” as they see it. I wonder how many women/feminists who seeth at their comments and feel attacked even consider how men must feel when a pack of feminists start mouthing off (and the likes of TwoX is a major sub)? Or even a group of women when they’re on an anti-man rant? I well remember seeing Cassie Jaye come to that realisation in her film.

Personally I think feminism is a problem and is a fair target. I do think that most women don’t really consider that we have problems compared to them. That’s partially because they’ve brought up with the refrain that “it’s a man’s world” and are wrapped up in their own problems and so just imagine that men don’t have them. We have many of the same problems women do, we have some they don’t have, and don’t have some of theirs (such as periods and risk of pregnancy). The main issue is that most women’s problems are now advanced as serious social issues that need to be addressed whilst most specifically male ones are swept under the rug and even raising them is seen as illegitimate.

Full marks to the women who wake up to this. It’s difficult enough for men to realise this.

So I agree. Women who support men’s rights should be applauded and cherished. And I think most here do. Indeed it’s my understanding that Erin Prizzey, Karin Straughn, Janice Fiamengo etc are revered in MRA circles (I’m a sympathiser rather than an MRA).

lawott2 · 2023-06-05T14:38:31+00:00

I would broaden this discussion a bit to point out that this is the internet and it is very easy to lie about your identity or experiences. There is usually little reason to call attention to some unprovable characteristic when posting here, and it makes any post beginning with, "woman, here..." very suspect. Unless it is directly relevant to the conversation it does not add much.

I would also point out that both /r/LadyMRAs and /r/FeMRA have been devoid of activity for a year or more.

Looking outside of just this website, there's only one living female wriiter that I really trust to "get it", Janice Fiamengo, and she has already sacrificed more than I would ask from anyone. I have nothing but respect for her careful thought, fair-mindedness, and measured presentation.

ZekalMacabre · 2023-06-07T15:24:32+00:00

You fail to realize that the main reason why a lot of us are here is BECAUSE of women and feminists.

If you got bit/stung/hurt by something wouldn't you be far more cautious around that thing?

That's what you're seeing.

We can't just forget our lived experiences and trust blindly anymore. You ask WAY too much.

While I get there's women here that support us and I'm thankful for that and them, I'm also wary of them because it also wouldn't be the first time a feminist pretended to care to try to get us to say something the sub could be taken down with.

You trust way too blindly. I can't do that.

Title	We Should Be Fairer to the Women Supporting Us
Author	Breast_Milk_Sucker
Upvotes	14
Comments	44
Date	June 4, 2023 5:23 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/140jrpz/we_should_be_fairer_to_the_women_supporting_us/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/we-should-be-fairer-to-the-women-supporting-us.1221291 https://theredarchive.com/post/1221291

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