A Great Divorce from all romance and family building may be one of the few ways men may finally get heard.

publicdefecation · 2024-06-11T20:18:50+00:00

I wouldn't count on it. MGTOW has been around for a while and it didn't succeed in raising any awareness or sympathy. From what I've seen people are convinced that men have no legitimate issues or any issues we have is our own fault.

SpicyMarshmellow · 2024-06-11T20:49:02+00:00

I don't think anything worse of women than I do of men in any generalized sense. But I do think women have insane levels of legal and social privilege in today's world, and wield near absolute power to cause hell for any man they don't like, with very little risk to themselves.

My ex and I got together in 2000, long before MeToo. From the very beginning, it became clear to me that she had quite a lot of power to present whatever narrative about me and our relationship to people that she wanted, and it would most often be accepted without question unless I countered with hard evidence.

In the early 2000's, I learned that it was state policy for police to arrest the man on any domestic violence call, even if a woman was the aggressor and even if the woman begged them not to. I learned this when it happened to someone I knew. All because their neighbors heard her screaming and called the police. Ever since then, I wondered if neighbors would call the police and what might happen to me every time my ex lost her shit and screamed at me or the kids.

I've first-hand witnessed plenty of examples besides my own of women being horribly abusive to men, turning their lives upside-down, and gaining loads of support both social and material from people who didn't know anything about the situation other than that relationship conflict was happening, which in their minds automatically meant woman needs support. Blatantly being rewarded by our society for being abusers.

I've first-hand witnessed a woman rape a man to get pregnant, openly admit that she did so, and get absolutely everything she wanted out of her actions with zero repercussions.

At the height of MeToo, in 2018, my home life was melting down. That year, my son attempted suicide because of his mom, and I decided things had gotten bad enough divorce was do or die. As I was trying to make this happen, I was seeing #believewomen plastered everywhere I looked all day every day, along with rabid angry narratives about the kind of abuse I was living through being an exclusively male perpetrated gendered social issue. I saw people even go so far as saying that if a man claims to be an abuse victim that he's just practicing DARVO, and it's actually evidence that he's an abuser. Or women dead serious saying they disagree with the notion that it's better for a guilty person to go free than an innocent to be falsely convicted. And not just occasional internet randos, but people I'd met in real life and considered friends for years saying things like this. It terrified the fuck out of me, because here I am trying to leave a woman with a history of lying about me and us with our kid's life on the line. I have 3 years of secret audio recordings of every interaction I had with her from 2018 - 2020 that I kept in attempts to protect myself and prove the need to get my son away from her if we ended up in court (thankfully we didn't). We were still under the same roof for most of that time, and that was such a fucking miserable way to live.

None of this is to say that women are abusers more than men or are generally worse people in any way. I don't think every woman I meet is going to be a horrible person who does horrible things and ruins my life. I think men and women are toxic and abusive to each other at roughly equal rates. But I think men are currently in a position where if a toxic woman enters into their life, they're just fucked. There are no options for us. Toxic men and women are *both* common enough that everybody will encounter them in their lives. But as a man, once you're closer than passing acquaintance to a woman and find out she's bad news, all you can do is hope she decides not to abuse her power. The only measure of self-defense you can take is to be on camera 24/7. And that's just... not... fucking... worth it.

So I agree, but not because I think it will get the world to listen. Because the balance of power is just too horribly out of whack, and women are incredibly dangerous to men right now. It's in our best interest to stay away from them, until the world decides it believes in innocent until proven guilty again and that abuse isn't a gendered issue.

alterumnonlaedere · 2024-06-12T00:12:27+00:00

Please keep mind I do not advocate for the MGTOW ideology, which is mostly bitter, needy men who try to compensate their insecurity by bragging about self sufficiency...

This is one of the fundamental misunderstandings, either intentional or unintentional, about MGTOW. It's not an ideology, it's not a "movement", it's not prescriptive, it's not dogmatic. MGTOW is just a philosophy more akin to Stoicism than anything else, no more, no less.

MGTOW is men going their own way, walking their own path through life. Some men are going to be bitter, needy, and loud, while others may be more or less silent. It's a fundamentally individualistic philosophical mindset, you can't assume anything about one man going his own way based on the behaviour and attitudes of another.

... but I believe more than ever that men as a collective need to learn to live without attaching themselves to families and women as romantic partners, maybe even without actively looking for female friendships.

...

Men should earn to love themselves and each other more. Men should start valuing their own worth as just humans and not either providers or cannon fodder for society. Men should create time and space to advocate for themselves, which women are too reluctant to concede. Fish don't need bycicles, but the latter do not need fish either.

You've essentially just described some of the reasons why and how men go their own way. Like it or not, you are advocating MGTOW (which is a good thing).

Men Going Their Own Way is Men's Liberation.

ChaosCron1 · 2024-06-11T21:51:48+00:00

believe more than ever that men as a collective need to learn to live without attaching themselves to families and women as romantic partners, maybe even without actively looking for female friendships.

While having friends who are women does expand your horizons, I agree that "brotherhood" and/or the gender-inclusive "camaraderie" needs to be emphasized.

Women can be a part of that so I wouldn't unilaterally push them away, but I think that it's important to have strong male friendships.

This is one thing that I find underrepresented in most contexts and outright mocked in others. It's not gay or feminine to talk about our feelings and test enjoy our time with each other.

Men should earn to love themselves and each other more. Men should start valuing their own worth as just humans and not either providers or cannon fodder for society. Men should create time and space to advocate for themselves, which women are too reluctant to concede. Fish don't need bycicles, but the latter do not need fish either.

Absolutely agree.

Blauwpetje · 2024-06-12T08:35:55+00:00

It will not work like any other strike will work. Too many men simply have the need for some form of heterosexual intimacy. I even think that many men have become male advocates BECAUSE the way society makes it hard for them (demonising male sexuality, promoting hyperselectiveness in women) to get that kind of relationship. Then that kind of strike is the last thing they’re waiting for.

Embarrassed-Tune9038 · 2024-06-11T22:03:25+00:00

I think America will do what most societies do when the underclass gets fed up.

Violence and repression.

finoallafine2023 · 2024-06-13T06:18:44+00:00

I think most men want: a) heterosexual sex, 2) intimacy, 3) companion, 4) have kids, 5) not be considered losers or weirdos. MGTOW adjacent movements are not something which can become popular, imo, for better or worse

Tevorino · 2024-06-13T00:59:44+00:00

Leaving aside the fact that, for some reason, the mainstream publicity of 4B has been less negative than that of MGTOW, I think it's important to remember that MGTOW never really presented itself as any kind of lobby, basically leaving that to MRAs. The distinction is easily missed, yet it's incredibly important. The best way I can illustrate it is like this:

Suppose that your preferred way to unwind, after a long day, is by enjoying a can of Pepsi with a bag of Flamin Hot Cheetos (PepsiCo owns both brands) while you watch movies or play video games. At some point you become very upset with the business practices of PepsiCo and decide to organise a boycotting campaign in an effort to get them to change their ways. Because their products bring you happiness, this represents a sacrifice for you.

Now suppose your boycotting campaign picks up steam, and you can have a large, public demonstration against PepsiCo, as you call for more people to boycott the company. At this demonstration, we can actually group the attendees into the following basic categories:

People like you who enjoy PepsiCo products, resent their business practices, and are prepared to sacrifice enjoyment of them in solidarity for the sake of social change.
People who share your resentment of PepsiCo's business practices, and demand the same changes, but who will later go home and enjoy PepsiCo products because they are not personally willing to make that sacrifice.
People who just outright hate PepsiCo, don't like their products at all, and wish they would go out of business. They stand with you in seemingly authentic solidarity, but because they would never buy PepsiCo's products anyway, they are not actually sacrificing anything or withholding any sales that PepsiCo would otherwise have had from them.
People who specifically resent PepsiCo for charging more for their products than what these people can afford (which means they must be very poor) or for using ingredients to which they happen to be allergic. They actually want to consume PepsiCo products, but can't because of some specific business decisions by PepsiCo, and it is solely this frustration that drives them to attend your demonstration. Like the category above, they aren't actually sacrificing anything or withholding any sales that PepsiCo would otherwise have had.

A 4B demonstration likely contains those same categories. I'm not even clear on whether they are calling for women, who would otherwise have intimate relations with men, to boycott them instead, or whether they are trying to sell women on the idea that they will be happier with their own lives with they no longer have intimate relations with men, however the fact that they seek publicity strongly suggests the former. The actual membership could very well be comprised mostly of women who were never attracted to men in the first place.

MGTOW, on the other hand, would be like if there was a community of people who all either dislike or can't afford PepsiCo products, and who discuss and promote alternatives that they find to be more enjoyable and/or affordable. They include the following categories of people:

All the people in categories 3 and 4 at your demonstration.
People who are completely indifferent to PepsiCo as a company, other than not liking their products, and who just want to learn about alternative drinks and snacks that they might like better.
People who are happily employed at PepsiCo and think it's a great company whose products just happen to not be to their personal taste.

Every member of this community, whether they hate PepsiCo as a company or not, is simply looking to get more enjoyment out of their own life; none of them are making any kind of sacrifice by not buying PepsiCo products.

My point, from which I seem to have drifted, is that 4B is probably overblown as a movement. I doubt that many of them have actually changed their lives, and I think most of them are just putting on a performance, much like if there were a labour strike where most of the people on the picket lines actually never worked there, and never wanted to work there.

I see no good coming from men trying to copy the inane tactics of 4B. Every man and woman should try to live their life in the way that makes them happiest, within the boundaries of laws and other aspects of reality. If some men have decided that the current social climate tips the scales against wanting to get married and have children, then they should refrain from doing that for their own sakes. They can also talk publicly about it if they want, but they should try not to be obnoxious about it. Realistically, society can't ignore a major withdrawal of men from things on which society depends, because the effects will eventually become impossible to ignore. At that point, they are going to start asking men why they don't want to do certain things, and we're already seeing some of that. It doesn't need to look like a strike or a boycott or anything organised; men can simply react to the current state of society in the same way that consumers reacted to Crystal Pepsi, with a similar result.

Charming_Gift7698 · 2024-06-13T04:38:15+00:00

I agree. A lot of women have a community within themselves but men are more isolated from each other and often will put eachother down for female validation but we need to value other men more and see their innate worth

Few_Sink_7386 · 2024-06-19T04:00:07+00:00

You're absolutely right. I'm a Christian who believes in family values but in the current environment, families for men can very easily and unironically become a slavery bondage. However, 4B movement started by women can never be successful, I know this sub is pessimistic but 4b movement is mostly based on fascist lies and will easily fail due to nature of women and dependency on Men. But Men boycotting families and even taxes can certainly do a lot of damage in the fascist narratives feminist creates as women get slowly starved of male support. Boycotting taxes and government itself should be a thing. Back when I used to be sucidal I used to think that Men should participate in a mass sucide (I was very mentally disturbed) and maybe then society will see the problem. There's already a mass su*cide happening among men anyway.

Title	A Great Divorce from all romance and family building may be one of the few ways men may finally get heard.
Author	AidenMetallist
Upvotes	76
Comments	33
Date	June 11, 2024 5:47 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1ddk9li/a_great_divorce_from_all_romance_and_family/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/a-great-divorce-from-all-romance-and-family.1521267 https://theredarchive.com/post/1521267

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