Natural Alpha vs Unnatural Alpha

asymptotic_salvation · 2014-07-01T13:40:13+00:00

Out of curiosity, how long have you been 'faking' this alpha persona?

Some people have suggested that you may never adopt the techniques and personality you describe into your intuition (which is arguably what your cousin has done from an early age), and that you should instead attempt to change your perspective of the whole situation.

I'd like to offer an alternative suggestion. As /u/Labore_Et_Constantia pointed out, professionals do not become unconscious of their performances straight away. It takes a gruelling amount of practice and time.

In Neuro-linguistic programming (the educational sort, not the controversial PuA interpretation), the process of learning some new ability is described in four stages and in describing them I'll use the example of learning to drive.

Unconscious Incompetence: you don't know what you don't know. This is you having never gotten behind the wheel of a car.
Conscious Incompetence: you're now aware of what you don't know, and if you're an astute learner, how you don't know it. You've sat behind the wheel of the car, looked at the steering wheel, the clutch (if you're European like me), the gears, the indicator and so on, and thought 'dafuq?'.
Conscious Competence: you can do it, but it's a fully-conscious effort. You can drive but god forbid anyone turned the radio on you'd plow into oncoming traffic.
Unconscious Competence: you can do it, and after long while if someone asked you how you do it you might not even be able to tell them. This is your typical experienced driver. Someone whose arms and feet 'move of their own accord' when they engage in the will to drive.

So my point is, perhaps you're still in the stage of Conscious Competence and all you need is a little more practice and a little more time. As you said, it's becoming easier and easier to call upon your 'education'.
I would perhaps try to make sure your practice is not too linear and monotonous, try and be more dynamic in your application of TRP material so that you're not just memorising Q&A's, but are learning a craft.
I hope this gives you something to think about.

Best of luck in your endeavours, bro.

kingofpoplives · 2014-07-01T10:18:53+00:00

I see exactly what you're saying, but I fail to see why it's such a tragedy. By becoming a pseudo-alpha, you have taken control of your sexual destiny. You may still feel inferior to the "pure" alpha, whatever that means, but are you doing better with women? Would you rather be a fake alpha, or a pure beta?

I think most of the guys who find themselves at TRP are (at least originally) some combination of overly intellectual and neurotic, insecure, shy, and needy. It is this combination of unmasculine weaknesses that causes underperformance with women. Society does a poor job of explaining why this is, and we see other men succeed who are less good looking, intelligent, successful, whatever. Our intellectual nature, which was part of the problem in the first place, leads us to analyze and seek knowledge like TRP.

Red Pill guys will never be natural alphas, it just isn't our personality type, but we can use TRP to address our weaknesses, have success with women, gain confidence, and become a more alpha version of our neurotic over-thinking selves. TRP has given us the opportunity to take our sex lives into our own control, understand our failures and successes, and use that knowledge in whatever way we decide in most enriching.

Labore_Et_Constantia · 2014-07-01T12:45:05+00:00

As others have said, stop over-analyzing and just keep practicing TRP tenants to the best of your ability.

You think when Tiger Woods changes his swing pattern it feels natural? What about when Michael Jordan got shooting coaching? What about when Wayne Gretzky changed his skating/stick handling?

There is a period of confusion within ANY growth and it will NOT feel natural for a while, but with time the habits will become embedded until you are one with them.

There are naturals within ANY pursuit, but the TRUE gift is going from an unnatural to what seems like a natural to what eventually would seem to be the exact same as the natural, why? Because you had to work for it and it is THAT much more rewarding.

I.e, would you rather just be amazingly gifted at something and with no work you instantly become the best ever or would you rather start lower on the skill rungs and month after month, year after year, continually rise as you get near the top of the activity?

They both have their perks, but personally I would much rather learn/understand and then help others to do the same, then just be that amazing natural because in some ways he is just as naive as the average beta in our world, his naivety has just been channeled in the right way.

RedPope · 2014-07-01T16:27:08+00:00

Your base concept is flawed. Alpha and beta describe traits, not people. There is no alpha man. There is no beta man.

Our personalities are composed of a mix of many different traits. Some of these traits are alpha: selfish, driven, aggressive. Some traits are beta: caring, sympathetic, protective. Notice that none of these are negatives. These are all valuable and desirable traits in men.

The strategy is to display the correct mix at the correct time. Chances are, like most of us, you've been running too much beta in your engine. You need to add more alpha.

But no woman wants a 100% alpha man. Picture some chest-thumping aggro ape in perpetual fuck-or-fight mode. That type of man will repel all but the drunkest of bar skanks.

When you approach a girl at a quiet bookstore, you tone it down. Come in at 65% alpha. Steer her over to the coffee shop for a one-on-one chat and bump it up to 75%. Bounce to the bar and after she's had a couple drinks you need to be running 90%.

If you've been dating for months, time to show your caring and supportive side. Add more beta. Run at 50% alpha for a while. Get married and now the challenge is to keep her interested. Slowly ramp back up to 70%.

People are not constant. Men or women. Our wants and desires change over time. You need to be the right person at the right time.

There are no unicorns and there are no naturals. The guy who is stuck at 90% alpha every day will only succeed in one of the five scenarios I just detailed. The rest of his life will be a trainwreck.

myTRPaccount · 2014-07-01T17:25:50+00:00

You're still in the PUA stage of rehearsing canned lines and trying to reason through social interactions as they happen. The next step in the process should be that you work on your Inner Game.

Your cousin is no more a true alpha than you can be with some time, effort and experience. I've been thinking about the EMSK post and why it just rankled me so much today and I came to a pretty easy conclusion. The reason women don't like it when guys try to learn "game" is because they believe guys are being dishonest with them by portraying someone they are not. This means that the women can't accurately judge their SMV, making it more difficult for them to make a decision. But women do this as well. They try to up their own SMV with make-up, clothes, surgeries, etc. and generally, men don't really like that either.

But here's the kicker: true Alphas also learned "game". They just didn't learn it by reading a book. They did it when they were growing up where they were lucky enough to be in an environment that allowed them (or even encouraged them) to do that.

cravatepliee · 2014-07-01T15:23:17+00:00

It's a lot like physical training. At first your body feels sore, you feel that you are not fit for such abuse and you envy the athletes around you that seem to be working out with ease, rocking 6packs. Then after years of hard work you become an athlete.

It's the same thing for your behaviour; if you practice long enough you'll start believing your own "fake alphattitude", then slowly forget to consciously monitor your ways until your good habits take over.

I've always been talkative, but not very social. After years of deliberately putting myself in guerilla social situations, my friends named me "No Shame" because I can start a conversation with anyone, almost anywhere. Practice doesn't make perfect, but it goes a long way.

aguy01 · 2014-07-01T17:35:13+00:00

How long have you been reading Redpill? It definitely becomes more and more natural. I've been at it for a year now and so much shit just comes naturally. I still read every day and am still improving, but there isn't much left that I don't have real world experience doing. The experience is what makes this stuff come naturally. The first few times you do something it's awkward, but with practice it becomes something you don't think about anymore.

True alpha males are made by their role models. They have strong fathers, or they wind up surrounded by strong men they can learn from. The difference is a 'true alpha' has been mimicking his models for a lot longer than you have been mimicking yours (redpill).

ITworksGuys · 2014-07-01T21:55:15+00:00

Behavior changes take time like almost anything else.

I am a supremely confident guy. I didn't use to be. In high school I was very insecure.

It took a lot risk for me to be comfortable in my current skin. Just keep at it, you'll be fine.

smokingmonkey420 · 2014-07-01T11:22:00+00:00

I think that you are over-analyzing the subject. Alpha is alpha, in my book. All the RP is about is self-improvement. If it leads you to being an alpha, then so be it.

I liken it to becoming an atheist. IMO, we are all atheist from birth, but it is due to our cultural upbringing and indoctrination that we develop "faith" in religion and a higher power.

Same thing with the BP/RP dichotomy. I imagine a lot more of us are born alpha than we realize, but it is only our upbringing that beats it out of us. Perhaps, you are only rediscovering yourself.

andy013 · 2014-07-01T20:02:55+00:00

Hey, I don't really visit this sub but I just stumbled upon this post and had to give my opinion. Several years ago I used to post in a seduction community but the more I learned about social groups and dominance hierarchies the more I began to realize that the vast majority of the advice was just superficial and wouldn't get me where I wanted to go.

I don't really believe that "faking it" can ever really work. I know you said you have had success from it, but I'm guessing this is just for first impressions. It is very difficult to continue to fake it for any length of time. I know from my own experience that the second a true natural alpha male would come around it would be almost impossible for me to retain dominance. Like your cousin, he is just naturally expressing himself and all the while communicating his dominance. Meanwhile you need to constantly be analyzing everything and trying to work out how you can fake it. I don't think this is a very productive road to go down and that's why I made a decision to change my approach.

The first question you may be asking is, "Why does my cousin do these things without thinking about them?" and what's more, why do some other guys communicate submissiveness without thinking about that either. Clearly there is some sort of subconscious process at work that is controlling these behaviours. If you can understand the underlying cause of these behaviours then perhaps you can change them without consciously trying to fake it.

If you look at other primates they also do these types of dominance and submissive behaviours. Things like chest beating and howling are used by animals for these purposes. But again the animals are not consciously thinking about or controlling these behaviours. They are just acting on instinct and feeling. You can call this underlying feeling whatever you want. Some call it dominance feeling, more generally other people may refer to it as confidence or self-esteem. In other words, the reason why the monkey is beating his chest is because he has high self-esteem or high dominance feeling. The reason why the other monkey is behaving submissively is because he has low self-esteem. This dominance feeling is the underlying controlling mechanism for ensuring that animals play by the group rules. It ensures that fights don't break out as often as the more submissive animals will give way to the dominant ones for the good of the group.

The next question is "What determines your level of dominance feeling or self-esteem?" If you could raise your dominance feeling then you would begin to do many of these dominant behaviours naturally just as your cousin does. Well within animals it can often be the bigger or stronger animal that is the more dominant one. The reason for this is that strength and size are generally associated with an increased chance of survival. So a group that the strongest animals get the most mating opportunities will ultimately be more successful than one who determines dominance by some other means.

However in humans (and other primates) it is not purely strength and size that are important. There are been studies on self-esteem that essentially say that the more you feel you are liked by others, the higher your self-esteem will be. So for humans it would seem that social success and strong bonds with others is the large determining factor for self-esteem and dominance. If you want to raise your self-esteem, you need other people to like you more.

I'm sure you will see this in your cousin. He is probably very good at interacting with people, joking around, building rapport etc. Every alpha male is.

This makes sense, being social and having lots of friends would have definitley helped out back in the cave man days. Certainly being on the sidelines of the group would have been very bad news for you and your chances of survivial.

If you want to raise your own dominance feeling you need to focus on becoming better at socializing and forming bonds with others. The better you are at that the more confident you will become and the more these types of behaviours that you are currently faking will just happen naturally without you even thinking about them.

Often times people on subs like these have problems like shyness or social anxiety that prevents them from really being themselves in social situations. This leads to very little rapport with others, which leads to low self-esteem, which leads to submissive behaviours. Trying to then fake dominant behaviours at that point is pretty fruitless. You really need to go back to the core problem and deal with that head on.

When you are out in a social situation you shouldn't be spending time thinking about status. You should just be trying to get others to like you as much as possible, through being a genuinely friendly person. After that self-esteem and attractiveness will come on their own.

In my experience, learning consciously all of these "rules" that you need to follow in order to communicate dominance will just lead to more problems because you are constantly thinking about that rather than just interacting honestly with others. It will also make you afraid to behave submissively because you think others might dislike you because of it. This is ultimately counter productive because it stops you from forming bonds with others because you are so busy worrying about all this stuff.

It is possible to not have social anxiety but to have other fears that prevent you from really being yourself in social situations. Sometimes you will come across people who lie or boast about themselves or others who try to act like tough guys. All these types of behaviours stem from a fear of being looked down upon by others. They are a safety behaviour that the person has learned to try and prevent others from disliking them. Ironically they often have the opposite effect. These types of issues are really beyond the scope of this post but I think that often trying to overcome these types of fears and behaviours is really the right way to go if you want to become more dominant. The more comfortable you feel in social situations the more likely you are to form good bonds with others.

I also strongly disagree with many of the posts here saying things like "Just practice more and it will become unconscious competence." Status and self-esteem are not skills that you get better at by practicing. Hopefully my explanation above explains why that is.

Johnny10toes · 2014-07-01T20:18:03+00:00

In terms of shit tests I don't find myself using a lot of canned responses. I'd say it's more of a flow chart. Recognizing then deciding to ignore, a&a or whatever then if applicable deliver an off the head response.

I've also thought about this. Which is better a learned alpha or natural. A learned natural would win I suppose. I think over time the learned has the advantage because you see naturals eventually fall. One example is a group I've really gotten into for the past couple of months, Volbeat, I can't listen enough. You'd have to listen to a lot of the lyrics but basically a badass guy with woman troubles. The music kind of aligns with the duality of us learned guys. "Is it Mr. Cadillac or you?"

Just something to think about.

MrRexels · 2014-07-02T02:26:10+00:00

Don't worry, you are just going through de-tox. People that just find out about this have literally YEARS of social and cultural bullshit to get rid off before they alpha mindset starts to quick off.

[deleted] · 2014-07-02T02:29:15+00:00

Johnny Soporno said: "Aything that you're actively trying to be is something that you're not actually being".

Women are very perceptive. They know when you're not being your true self. They just know. That's why I prefer to always work toward becoming more attractive, but when I'm around people, I consioucly behave only as masculine as I actually am at that point.

[deleted] · 2014-07-02T09:59:44+00:00

Oh cmon dude, knowing the rules and owning them IS ALPHA.

You have to realize that if you needed THE RED PILL, then you were handed a bad hand in the first place.

You know what's not fair? Being given a poor hand and making the best of it and still feeling bad for being given a bad hand.

You forget that you've practiced and improved upon yourself and are reaching the objectives that you want. That's not fake, that's not unnatural, the effort and the results are right fucking there.

I'm not even doing that thing where blue pills make each other feel better by saying what you want to hear.

You're alpha because you made yourself alpha, I think you are more alpha than a normal alpha because natural alphas had it easy their entire lives. YOU WENT THROUGH ADVERSITY, and you OVERCAME THAT ADVERSITY. To me, that's the most fucking alpha thing ever.

Is Mike Tyson a loser? He started at the bottom as well man.

In fact, you know what? Everything is natural. You were born, you weren't very successful, but once you figured the rules out, you turned that around, and that my friend, is a perfectly natural response.

Stop feeling bad for not being born Alpha, you made yourself Alpha and that's all that fucking matters you fucking shitty little pussy.

Now go out there and fuck more women than the average male, all possible from the effort and practice you put it.

BeefyBeefy · 2014-07-03T20:43:24+00:00

I find this post very sincere, genuine, and most of all hilarious.

I bet most trp'ers have in some point felt this way. The ones who deny it on this sub aren't any different, they're just better at maintaining frame.

joshsoowong · 2014-07-01T14:18:47+00:00

People grow up differently is all. Accept your childhood as he did his.

cooltrip · 2014-07-01T16:06:33+00:00

"an alpha is someone that actually succeeds at playing the game"

Sorry, no, an Alpha is a handsome man.

Let me copy-paste myself:

Alpha is a handsome, physically fit man.

It doesn't matter what your goals are.
It doesn't matter what your interests are.
It doesn't matter what your achievements are.
It doesn't matter how intelligent you are.
It doesn't matter what your skills and abilities are.
It doesn't matter what your ethics and kindness are.
It doesn't matter what your behavior is.
It doesn't matter what your game is.
It doesn't matter if you have a mission or not.
It doesn't matter what your job is.
It doesn't matter what your social status is.
It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor.
It doesn't matter if you are well adapted to your environment and you have greater survival traits and skills or not.
It doesn't matter if you've had sex with many women, few, or if you are an absolute incel.
It doesn't even matter if you are homosexual or heterosexual.

Nothing matters.

Alphaness is just handsomeness and physical fitness.

Let's hope we get it within the next 10,000-11,000 years.

Title	Natural Alpha vs Unnatural Alpha
Author	MnemonicFitness
Upvotes	21
Comments	28
Date	July 1, 2014 9:26 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/29jtp2/natural_alpha_vs_unnatural_alpha/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/natural-alpha-vs-unnatural-alpha.17323 https://theredarchive.com/post/17323

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