CMV: Both women and men are primarily monogamous.

throwaway1643 · 2015-09-26T04:52:06+00:00

This should be a fairly easy CMV, because the scientific consensus doesn't agree with your opinion.

For example, from this study in the Journal of Molecular evolution,

Abstract: The results of our SNP analyses can be reconciled with the expansion of male effective population sizes inferred from STR loci, and with mitochondrial evidence, by admitting that humans were essentially polygynous during much of their history. As a consequence, until recently only a few men may have contributed a large fraction of the Y-chromosome pool at every generation. The number of breeding males may have increased, and the variance of their reproductive success may have decreased, through a recent shift from polygyny to monogamy, which is supported by ethnological data and possibly accompanied the shift from mobile to sedentary communities.

where,

Polygyny (/pəˈlɪdʒɪniː/; from Neoclassical Greek πολυγυνία from πολύ- poly- "many", and γυνή gyne "woman" or "wife") is a form of plural marriage, in which a man is allowed more than one wife (i.e., it is a narrow form of polygamy, and distinguished from other forms of polygamy such as polyandry).

Here, the authors use "recent" to refer to only the last 10,000 years of history.

TLDR; Therefore, for the vast majority of our evolutionary past in proto- hunter/gatherer socities, humans were most probably not primarily monogamous.

This is the biological consensus. A consequence of this fact is that our emotions and feelings, (such as attraction, anger, sexual jealousy, mate selection strategy) all evolved in humans over a period where monogamy was not the norm...

Yes, I know humans aren't 100% monogamous. The split seems to be 70/30s according to Jared Diamond.]

Also, that's not true either. It's actually only ~ 20% of human societies that are monogamous, so it's more like 20/80 (source)

TheGreasyPole · 2015-09-26T15:01:23+00:00

It isn't evolutionary advantageous to sleep around instead if a wife for males. It's evolutionarily advantageous for males to do both. That's the optimum, a faithful wife AND license for sleeping around on top.

See this comment for an explanation

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3mc2y8/the_male_imperative/cvdss8z

It's not exactly identical with the RP answer. It's the evo psych answer.

It also explains why humans are monogamous despite this being the optimum (because the two imperatives are inconsistent with each other, males and females can't both have their maximum, and marriage is a compromise deal between the two).

It's as though the best male strategy is to have 100% of the oranges and 50% of the apples... And the females vice versa. Clearly they can't both have this as it requires 150% of all the apples and the oranges.

Marriage is the deal where the males takes 50% of apples and of oranges, and the woman takes the same. It's a deal to allow both to get as close as they can get given you can't have more than 100% between the pair. It's a relatively equitable deal.

dreckmal · 2015-09-26T15:13:44+00:00

By simply looking at the reproductive elements in men and women, you can see why men are 'wired' to be polygynous.

A healthy woman will have ~400 fertile eggs that she can produce offspring with for her entire life... i.e. a limited supply. She also carries the child for 9 months every time she is pregnant. She also has a roughly 20-30 year window for fertility.

A healthy man produces somewhere around ~250 fertile gametes every time he ejaculates. He can theoretically be fertile after the age of 13 for his entire life.

Ramses II supposedly had somewhere around 160+ children. 1 in 200 people alive today are descendants of Genghis Khan.

How could there be any doubt that men are polygynous in nature?

How is it more beneficial to impregnate as many women as possible as opposed to investing most of your time to helping a particular individual who has your genes survive, especially in a hunter gatherer society in which humans don't reach sexual maturity until around 12?

This is true for the offspring, but men are capable of fathering thousands of children. By sheer numbers alone, a couple hundred would survive without his presence.

PostNationalism · 2015-09-26T05:51:29+00:00

In patriarchal societies men marry and own their wives. In matriarchal it'd much more catch and release.

Criket · 2015-09-27T12:40:41+00:00

No about the quart is poly. Me and my girlfriend are poly (and she's bisexual). On paper that look fine, but actually in the real world, is not that easy. All partner have to love every other partner, that where the shit hit the fan. It's already not easy between two peoples...

wazzup987 · 2015-09-28T09:20:04+00:00

No and this is evidenced by HG tribes, the concept of monogamy didn't exist until we became and agrarian society, until then pretty much every one fucked every, no knew who the father so in essence EVERY MALE WAS THE FATHER OF EVERY CHILD. the men were loyalty to the tribe not an individual woman and the same of the women.

We are becoming in the west in non shit hole nation neo tribal again. this does not bother me.

Title	CMV: Both women and men are primarily monogamous.
Author	ThisWontDo
Upvotes	9
Comments	57
Date	September 26, 2015 4:25 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3mfdze/cmv_both_women_and_men_are_primarily_monogamous/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-both-women-and-men-are-primarily-monogamous.279380 https://theredarchive.com/post/279380

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