Old greeks meet the new greeks

[deleted] · 2015-05-13T08:04:43+00:00

Ancient Greece was far more complicated:

On sex with women: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaira

On between men: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece

"Given the importance in Greek society of cultivating the masculinity of the adult male and the perceived feminizing effect of being the passive partner, relations between adult men of comparable social status were considered highly problematic, and usually associated with social stigma."

TheGreasyPole · 2015-05-13T09:29:35+00:00

I think you are massively mistaking the views of a small number of very rich, very educated men who left written records... With the view of all greeks living that culture.

I think having sex with a woman was seen as disgusting by this sub-group, many of whom we would class today as homo or bi sexuals, but was not seen as disgusting, but fun and enjoyable, by much of the remaining 95% of society or so.

Including, incidentally, many of the other rich men who left written records.

Paris didn't steal Menelaus to fuck, did he ? He stole Helen. (admittedly, Achilles went batshit over Patroclus but that relationship is described as a bro-mance rather than a homosexual relationship. Achilles also went bat shit over Chryses, who was a woman slave Achilles was fucking).

If you want I can only give you about another million examples from greek literature. Shit, Zeus had a penchant for fucking mortals... Seemed to prefer the chicks though. Never fucked a dude.

This idea that homosexuality was the norm, and sex with females is disgusting, is not supported by the literature... Almost all of which takes a very hetero-normative view. Particularly Greek cultures "Founding Documents"... The Illiad, The Odyessy.

Red Pill "won't follow the greeks" for the exact same reason that the "greeks didn't follow the greeks the way you describe".

Because almost all of them are interested in fucking chicks. If anything, The Red Pill guys are even more into that than ancient greeks were.

Sexuality is not THAT malleable.

dragoness_leclerq · 2015-05-13T06:20:05+00:00

I think Red pill is proto movement toward that structure of society

In all honestly, this is part of a topic I've been thinking about a lot as of late. Not just male-female interactions in Ancient Greek society, but the historical view of women in some societies overall. TRP speaks of women in similar ways men did many centuries ago. That woman is the evil, seductive, grasping temptress hellbent on using men for personal gain an inciting lust only to lead them into ruin, etc. That men are the only ones to hold or value "honor" and "righteousness". That women have no value beyond their fertility and their bodies, etc.

In some ways I think this is why I'm not as adverse to TRP ideals and consider myself purple pill. Because these kinds of ideas aren't new to me in the least; they've been around for a millennia, only now they're being repackaged and marketed toward the modern world.

kick6 · 2015-05-13T14:41:06+00:00

The red pill is a reincarnation of mentality in ancient Greece where men saw women only for breeding purposes.

Nope. Try again. TRP doesn't think that women are incapable of anything more, it's just that the current crop is only good for that. We're reacting to reality, not trying to dictate it.

myfatbrokethewall · 2015-05-13T07:15:03+00:00

I don't know much about ancient Greece, but...

Male homosexuality was not common but the norm. Having sex with women was seen as a disgusting but necessary task.

What?

First, how can something not be common but be the norm? Did you mean male homosexuality was common but not the norm?

Second, if that is official history and you're not mistaken, I would wonder how many original sources about ancient Greek society there are, and if maybe for some reason (perhaps chance?) the accounts written by gay men survived disproportionately.

Viewing sex with women "as a disgusting but necessary task" sounds like something a gay man might think. Or perhaps a man who was forced to marry a very disgusting woman for political (or similar) reasons. "Necessary" implies for the purpose of breeding however, so the women would have at least been of reproductive age. Sounds unlikely that men would have found sex with those women disgusting.

haircombsnightmare · 2015-05-13T16:57:41+00:00

I've always thought some of redpill's writings were quite homoerotic.

Whisper · 2015-05-13T19:22:59+00:00

You seem to regard yourself as a great authority on the thoughts and habits of the ancient Greeks. I'm sure you will have no trouble providing us with some scholarly sources for your assertions.

exit_sandman · 2015-05-13T07:10:30+00:00

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_ancient_Greece says a lot of prostitutes (maybe most? hard to tell) were women, which means a lot of men actually wanted sex with them (and not for breeding). Humping adolescent boys' thighs was only desired while they were young enough not to look masculine.

I do envy gay men's sex lives but "politically gay" is only an option for men who somehow aren't repulsed by male bodies.

wazzup987 · 2015-05-13T07:06:14+00:00

If I could choose something to be attracted to, forget men, I would pick fat trashy smoker chicks. Easy to score, and fat chicks give good head.

capt-next-a-hoe · 2015-05-13T05:53:06+00:00

Kek.

Full honesty, I'd have no problems being homosexual or bi if the boipussy looked this good (yup, that's a male).

I think your theory is a little unrealistic though, since most RP men don't hate or disdain women as much as you or BP think, at least enough to not deal with them completely and only then for breeding purposes.

[deleted] · 2015-05-13T08:35:34+00:00

[permanently deleted]

trphardmode · 2015-05-13T13:33:01+00:00

I think that gays being treated as privileged minorities gives more incentive to head that way than TRP does. I've heard plenty of BP men lament that they get shit for being "straight white men."

ThorLives · 2015-05-13T19:17:04+00:00

Having sex with women was seen as a disgusting but necessary task. and these greek men saw women in the same light as RP

Yeah, it was more complicated than that. The Greek poet Soppho (born on the island of Lesbos*) saw female-female sex as the purest form of sex.

*You might recognize the name "Lesbos" as the root source of the word "lesbian".

[deleted] · 2015-05-13T22:02:52+00:00

Wifes for breeding, hetairas for company and boys for pleasure

summeliorquamtu · 2015-05-14T05:03:33+00:00

The red pill is a reincarnation of mentality in ancient Greece where men saw women only for breeding purposes.

In the first sentence you've proven you have no understanding of Ancient Greek culture beyond the popularized image.

Ancient Greece wasn't a unified group; it was a bunch of city-states with their own unique rules and customs. Older-man-younger-men relationships were a thing in some cities, while incredibly forbidden in others; and, even in the ones where they were a practice there were very strict customs around them. Then those customs within a city-state varied depending on the philosophical grouping some people aligned themselves with. It was a very complex, and hotly debated, custom.

So assuming were talking about a city-state that was generally permissive, the customs became very specific in most cases; this included things on both sides. For the adult man this meant rules on what age was too young for the boy, what age was too old, how much effort you put into chasing after one particular boy, not adding another suitor if the boy had several already, and acceptance of his is option to ignore your advances. For the young man they had to be careful not to be too accepting of the gifts they were given by the older man, they couldn't give away their affection too freely, but at the same time they couldn't be seen as not giving it at all, and they couldn't have too many suitors vying for that affection.

It was a very large balancing act on both sides, and could have disasters consequences for either side if something didn't go according to custom. In some cases leading to exile from the city, but more often in the form of political attacks.

So, no, the redpill is not a proto-movement back to the Ancient Greek model because that model is far too complex of a social creation to be brought back to modern, western society by a single, small group of people. If you want to know more about the little things of all of this, Foucault's "History of Human Sexuality" goes over it in the third part; if I'm remembering correctly.

wazzup987 · 2015-05-13T08:55:13+00:00

The red pill is a reincarnation of mentality in ancient Greece where men saw women only for breeding purposes. Male homosexuality was not just common but the norm. Having sex with women was seen as a disgusting but necessary task.

Yeah, no.

TheGreasyPole · 2015-05-13T09:49:05+00:00

Lol. Just because you piqued a memory... another comment... Because I know you'll be interested. This is fun shit.

There was a greek city state that attempted to use homosexuality in warfare. Thebes. They setup a crack military unit The Sacred Band made exclusively of homosexuals.

Basically, husband and wife pairs.

They then forced them to fight with pairs in the same rank. Because by doing so your shield (which covers the man to your left as much as you) would be covering "your wife" and not just some random Theban dude.

This gave them a really strong incentive not to drop that shield... Because, if you did, your wife took the spear in the throat... This made them the elite Theban unit and they were used as such (holding either the centre of the line, or the far right where hoplite formations are the weakest due to shields being on the left).

However, this arrangement was singular... and the oddity of it belies your point in OP... Even the Greeks thought this was fucking weird and it was a single specialised unit of 150 couples. NOT the structure of the entire Theban army (suggesting they could only find 300 homosexuals to man it).

Anyway... Weird but successful. RP would like it because it worked.

As I understand it (it's been a long time since my ancient greek studies) they never broke and fled, not even once.

They did get wiped out, to a man, on the field of battle at least one time and (if I recall correctly) more than once. When this happenned the Sacred Band had to be reconstituted from scratch.

However, by the standards required of a hoplite formation... This is fucking excellent behaviour, exactly what is expected to give the best chance of victory.

Enjoy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

EDIT:

The traditional hoplite infantry was no match for the novel long-speared Macedonian phalanx: the Theban army and its allies broke and fled, but the Sacred Band, although surrounded and overwhelmed, refused to surrender.

The Thebans of the Sacred Band held their ground and Plutarch records that all 300 fell where they stood beside their last commander, Theagenes.

Their defeat at the battle was a significant victory for Philip, since until then, the Sacred Band was regarded as invincible throughout all of Ancient Greece.

Plutarch records that Philip II, on encountering the corpses "heaped one upon another", understanding who they were, wept and exclaimed,

Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

—Plutarch, Pelopidas 18[18]

-------- That he had to say that they had "done nothing unseemly" argues against your point that "all greeks viewed homosexuality as the ultimate seemliness !"

Villaintine · 2015-05-13T12:06:09+00:00

I think it only matter of time before we see red pill advocating for men to be politically gay.

Not sure what you mean by "politically gay" but I have seen it mentioned (particularly on MGTOW sites) that gay marriage may be the surest way to get the financial benefits of marriage without risking the fickle nature of women.

Title	Old greeks meet the new greeks
Author	wazzup987
Upvotes	7
Comments	49
Date	May 13, 2015 5:23 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/35stcp/old_greeks_meet_the_new_greeks/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/old-greeks-meet-the-new-greeks.282186 https://theredarchive.com/post/282186

Comments