CMV: In conservative societies, low divorce rates are only due to it being harder to divorce the society oppressing women

JP_Whoregan · 2015-04-15T04:16:41+00:00

"Oppression" this, "oppression" that...God these arguments get tiring.

Til death do us part.

These words are recited upon the altars of millions of marriages every year. Rarely are they honored. Those words mean that, when a couple marries, then they have pledged to work things out for the sake of their own family and for the sake of their children. No quarrel, no matter how petty or how serious, can crack the bond between husband and wife. The marriage forms a plate of steel, unifying the two in a state of unwavering bond.

It has nothing to do with "oppressing women" any more than it has to do with "oppressing men". It just meant that the church, and by default the community, held both parties in a marriage to an equal standard of stalwart conviction and adherence to the family. Without nuclear families, societies collapse. This has been demonstrated time and time again throughout history. Once men lose the incentive to harbor and nurture families, they lose the will to work, and they lose the will to repel invading forces.

Problem these days is, it's so easy to just blow up the family when one party (usually the woman) isn't "haaaapy" or is just "bored" in the marriage.

Divorce used to be a mark of shame, on both husband and wife. Today, it is a mark of "you GO grrrrlll!!!" for the wife. She gets to cash out of the deal and collect cash and prizes, and the man is left paying for a family that he no longer has. Great deal.

And we wonder why marriage rates are plummeting faster than a drop-tower ride.

Villaintine · 2015-04-15T09:23:12+00:00

oppression of women in those groups

Anyone who isn't willing to accept their own agency will always be oppressed.

[deleted] · 2015-04-15T03:16:53+00:00

I'm only going to mention that I grew up in a very conservative village in Greece. 98% of families there are pretty traditional but I can say that not all of them are happy, they have their own problems.

Cheating, Domestic violence, child abuse, unhappy marriages, children born out of wedlock, all those things exist in traditional societies too. You only don't hear about them so much because people don't talk about these things, they're considered taboo.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2015-04-15T05:09:31+00:00

Women consider not being able to break their wedding vows at will "oppression", so, Yes

[deleted] · 2015-04-15T03:21:20+00:00

I wouldn't say only. If theres huge social costs to a divorce, you're going to try your best to make to make it work, compared to the US where it's "oh you're divorced? Must have been rough."

FeministBPer · 2015-04-15T03:56:47+00:00

Considering that divorce in all cultures (that I have ever seen studies on) is primarily female initiated, divorce rate is going to be lowest in countries that shun women who do it and highest in countries which reward women who do it.

If you want to call not giving a woman a house half an income and complete control over her children oppression, then I cant disagree with you.

winndixie · 2015-04-16T01:13:47+00:00

It's not oppression. It's tradition and culture. If staying in a relationship is oppression then men are being oppressed as well. Ask them how many of them love their naggin fat wives and would turn down the freedom to remarry if they would not be smited by basically everyone.

fiat_lux_ · 2015-04-15T05:23:14+00:00

The other part has heard many refutations that the lower divorce rate, and any other sign that the marriages of those families are more stable than other family models, is due to oppression of women in those groups.

Let's take a look at the People's Republic of China. It's a significantly larger country than the US in terms of population and is culturally conservative/traditional country when it comes to marriage.

Compare the divorce rates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography

Notice that China has a lower divorce rate than not only US but neighbouring East Asian countries, Japan and Korea, as well. Japan and Korea are both just as "patriarchal" and oppressive towards women as China is or even more so. (About 40% of the engineers are female despite the gender population gap. It also produces more female billionaires than any other except the US. And, partially due to the one child policy, high power women there are not as unusual to Chinese as they are in Japan.)

Also, I doubt western feminists could name any specific Chinese laws that oppress women in there.

If you want to talk about some abstract cultural oppression, then we can't deny that. That is a lot of what "culture" and tradition are about anyway. Culture will also influence men. Refer to JP_whoregan's post.

One of these cultural "pressures" against divorce is the fact that the communities are generally tighter, stabler, and larger. Both the husband and wife must get along and respect their in-law elders. The typical Chinese resident of a apartment complex with a hundreds of other residents will know all of their neighbours and their families. The typical American suburbanite will barely know his neighbours on a street with just a dozen other houses.

I suppose you could say that it's "oppressive" in that it's a shame society and you will be embarrassed in the eyes of your family, your ex-wife's family, and many other social circles when you divorce. Frivolous divorces that happen just because one side is "unhappy" are almost unheard of. I know one case, and their only child got fucked by it in terms of connections and opportunities.

It's a mark of shame for both parties, as JP put it. And why shouldn't it be, especially in a society that puts such a high emphasis on sacrificing for the next generation? You're essentially saying your personal "happiness" (or what you think is your happiness) has more value than your child's and all the relationships you developed over time with your husband/wife and his/her family and friends.

But if being viewed as "shameful" by others for your questionable behaviours is considered oppressive, then our society is very oppressive towards men for "shaming" them and getting them fired over private conversations that are deemed even remotely misogynistic.

[deleted] · 2015-04-15T09:15:15+00:00

Thats likely true, the number of crap, miserable marriages was comparable to todays divorce rate.

Except for the oppressing women bit, marriage was designed to lift women up, not oppress them.

Women only stop wanting it when technology negates its advantages.

GridReXX · 2015-04-15T16:28:22+00:00

The other part has heard many refutations that the lower divorce rate, and any other sign that the marriages of those families are more stable than other family models, is due to oppression of women in those groups.

Wouldn't say oppression, though it's correlative.

It's more or less incentive.

In conservative traditions, the woman is incentivized to remain married because she has little means of her own and is socially discouraged to engage in opportunities that would allow her to have means.

TLDR: She's stuck cuz she ain't go no money to support herself alone.

But I agree overall that in conservative cultures, divorce rates are low because of incentive.

Not saying those people don't love each other and I'm not saying that they don't value commitment more. I'm just saying that if you took away the incentive, you would see more questioning the "value of commitment."

[deleted] · 2015-04-15T19:36:56+00:00

Way to make a huge overgeneralization... as if only two kinds of societes exist, conservative and liberal...

Hint: Japan. It is not hard to divorce, but people have this sense of discipline that I made a choice, made a promise, I stick to it... are they conservative?

wombatinaburrow · 2015-04-15T05:18:18+00:00

I grew up in a rural conservative community where divorce rarely happened. Leaving your husband was akin to worshipping Satan and you were shunned by the community. There was plenty of oppression (women not given a proper wage, poor working conditions, sexual abuse and treated as property and second class citizens, with alcohol abuse and domestic violence very common); but a woman was stuck with her abuser until one of them left the house in a pine box.

sohamster · 2015-04-15T03:40:57+00:00

Hard to say. In Canada, Newfoundland has a very low divorce rate. Is it because Newfies are laid back, or they have a Catholic background, or it snows so much they can't get out of the door 9 months of the year?

UyhAEqbnp · 2015-04-15T11:24:32+00:00

evidence seems to show people actually grow happier with choices they can't control. I'd speculate that the statistics for arranged marriage couples being happy probably transfers over to similarly fixed marriages generally

but you're right, this can be a real problem for things like spousal abuse

Title	CMV: In conservative societies, low divorce rates are only due to it being harder to divorce the society oppressing women
Author	HeelsDownEyesUp
Upvotes	1
Comments	78
Date	April 15, 2015 3:11 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/32n6fh/cmv_in_conservative_societies_low_divorce_rates/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-in-conservative-societies-low-divorce-rates.282649 https://theredarchive.com/post/282649

Comments