Ok, who here believes that men and women are entirely the same?

Canned_Wine199 · 2014-01-05T15:38:31+00:00

No one's going to argue that there aren't differences between men and women, I think you'd hardly find people on RP who wouldn't agree that there are certain things we associate with gender that are social constructs. The red pill position however generally seems to be that the gender dichotomy is good and our culture's move towards accepting men doing things that have been traditionally considered feminine and women doing things that have been traditionally considered as masculine is doing harm to people and society as a whole, to which I wholeheartedly disagree. A lot of the sentiment that women should stop trying to do man things seems to be fueled by a fear of loss of a masculine identity. I'm not sure why this insecurity doesn't affect me, I don't see my identity as contingent on what others are doing with their lives. Sorry if I rile anyone up by saying so but I think this insecurity in one's gender identity and urge to preserve gender roles is driven by the same insecurity in identity anti-gay marriage types experience, that somehow if a group of people start doing something you see as traditionally reserved for your group of people, it somehow desanctifies their identity because now you have people doing something that used to be reserved solely for your group.

IRScientist · 2014-01-05T14:56:46+00:00

Yes, you're going to see some differences. Which of those are biological and cultural are going to be impossible to tease out. That said, just because men and women are different, doesn't mean one sex is handicapped. I mentioned below, men have less color receptors (whether they have less variety or simply less quantity I'm not sure) which mean they don't have the same color range for red as women do. Yet they're often doing jobs where color does matter (for warning signs, wires, etc.). The brain is also pretty plastic--you can get to the same place using different pathways.

I also suspect differences are going to be greater between two people of the same sex with different socioeconomic backgrounds, than two people of the different sex with the same socioeconomic backgrounds.

The reality is, there's more to genetics than just the data stored in your genes. It's how you use that data. That's how we gonads and skin and nerves out of the same parcel of instructions--gene expression. With methylation discovered, scientists are starting to realize Lamarck wasn't entirely wrong with his notion of animals effecting their genes over their lifetime.

mrsamsa · 2014-01-06T01:48:04+00:00

I think what we can conclude from this thread is that we can't find a single blue piller who accepts a blank slate view of gender differences. Perhaps it might be useful to redirect this thread to trying to determine why red pillers continue to present this strawman despite the mass of contradicting evidence, and I think (based on the responses in this thread) the misunderstanding comes from two basic claims [paraphrased]:

1) "You accept there are differences but you probably think they are all cultural": I suppose this is possible but it doesn't seem to be supported by anything said by blue pillers in this thread. I'd be interested in seeing any evidence that this is true.

2) "You say you accept innate gender differences but when I suggested men and women differ in regards to X, people disagreed!": I think this reasoning is perhaps the cause of most of the misunderstanding as generally what happens is that a red piller makes a strong claim about innate differences between men and women based on anecdotal stories or, at best, research which is not universally supported, and they conclude that anyone who disagrees must be arguing for a blank slate position.

But this makes no sense. If I were to argue that women are biologically superior in terms of using tampons and argued that anyone who disagreed was a blank slatist, then I'd hope that people would rightly call me an idiot as there would be crucial cultural and learning components that affect the ability of men and women in that task. And (importantly) questioning the validity of this claim would say nothing as to whether that person rejects the existence of all biological differences.

It's possible that it all might boil down to just how much someone understands science and/or how much someone accepts scientific findings. With the first part there I find that most people who try to discuss nativist claims just don't understand how the science in the area works and don't comprehend what kind of evidence is needed to conclude whether a behavior is innate or not. As an example, I've had discussions with people who thought that a behavior being culturally universal was evidence of it being innate, and even people who suggested that if you observe all members of a species doing something, then it must be innate.

The second part simply refers to the fact that scientific evidence is useless if the red piller doesn't accept science. This tends to happen in a number of ways, either they will explicitly state that if science and their beliefs disagree then they'll reject science, or they'll concoct some conspiracy theory where feminists rule science and can't be trusted (until it supports their position, and then it's science, bitches).

Archipelagi · 2014-01-05T17:14:02+00:00

There aren't any strawmen who are members of this sub, so no one will answer yes to this question. Aside from everything else, no two people can be totally identical, and no two groups of people can be totally identical, so it is impossible for female humans and male humans to be identical.

But beyond that, the question implies a sort of binary situation that is biologically impossible. Two populations are not either "different" or "identical," as those terms are pretty meaningless when speaking of populations. A population made up solely of men and a population made up solely of women will have equivalent results if you are measuring some attributes. Those same two populations will show very disparate results if you are measuring different attributes. But it is important to remember that is not the same as saying "men are [different from/identical to] women."

spechick · 2014-01-05T13:00:15+00:00

[EDIT] Ohlawdy. I misread a 'neck up' as 'neck down' which leads to the incredulous tone of this post. I no longer am incredulous and I can understand what debate OP is trying to get at. (even if I still think it's clumsily constructed)
[/EDIT]

I don't think many people are arguing that anatomically men and women are the same. That's an obtuse way of stating an argument.

It makes one wonder what kind of hamfisted debate you're trying to stir up.

TRP is very focused on a Heteronormativite lifestyle (in other words men and women fall into strict separate gender roles) When people try to argue that "Men and women aren't different" they're not saying that their physiology is necessarily the same, (though in some cases, such as transgendered individuals, it might be.) they're saying that trying to force people into a specific role entirely because of their sex organs is stupid.

raanne · 2014-01-06T00:57:57+00:00

Do I think there are differences? Sure. Case in point: in high school we had to take some dumb test that showed how good we are at spacial 3d thinking, and I scored in the 95th percentage for guys, the 99th percentage for girls. This tells me that on average guys were better than girls at this (5% vs 1% scored perfect) but I, as a girl, still scored better than 95% of the guys. So this is what is meant by "differences exist but they aren't important". Knowing how the average breaks out tells you nothing about the individual, and if you try and judge based upon that then you will likely be wrong. Also, most studies that show a difference confirm a huge overlap, which makes broad sweeping statements ridiculous. Men and women are not opposites, they are both human, and tend to act within the spectrum for "normal human behaviour" regardless of sex or gender.

ahostofeyelashes · 2014-01-05T16:41:45+00:00

It might have been better to ask who thinks gender is a social construct, no?

Either way, I don't believe gender is entirely a social construct. Or even mostly a social construct - in fact it's probably the opposite, imo. There will be sex differences between human beings that are based on those hormonal, physical etc. differences. I do believe that in general, women will be better nurturers of young children and men will be better warriors/soldiers.

Does this mean I see it as black and white? That I believe it's impossible for a given man to be as good as a given woman at nurturing a child? Or a given woman as good as a given man at soldiering? No. There will be outliers, they exist. There will probably be MANY outliers. Society needs to accept that these outliers exist and make sure they have as much freedom to pursue their individual life's work/goals as those individuals that fit neatly into our generalized sex roles. This for me is one of the places where TRP fails. It tends to see things people, too - as absolute and they're not. No competent, adult person is any more or less deserving of freedom than another.

ZorbaTHut · 2014-01-05T13:23:28+00:00

Like from the neck up totally identical

Well, men are much more likely to be colorblind than women. And men tend to go bald, whereas women get gray hair.

I know that wasn't what you were talking about, but I admit, given the sheer number of physical differences between men and women, I find it absolutely fascinating that anyone would propose our brains are identical.

AshleyYakeley · 2014-01-05T13:43:33+00:00

What are the differences?

Vault91 · 2014-01-06T02:41:35+00:00

I think "man" and "woman" are a poor way to judge character

[deleted] · 2014-01-06T06:53:08+00:00

I don't believe that men and women are entirely the same, but then again, I don't believe that anyone is entirely the same.

But semantics aside, you can't separate the genders from how they are socially conditioned. It's been going on for far too long. It's an impossible question to answer scientifically. We just don't know to what extent men and women (in generalizations) are different, without outside influence.

doth_revenge · 2014-01-05T16:06:18+00:00

There are definitely differences. It would be silly to think that there aren't- our chemistry is different. Everyone's brains develop differently. On average, men are better at problem solving, ~~women use more words~~, etc.

However, I don't think the average is the end-all, be-all. Maybe that's the difference? Just because people are different from one another doesn't mean you have to / need to treat them differently unless the situation calls for it. (For example, special ed classrooms, ramps for handicapped people, schools that teach in various languages, etc.)

EDIT: Went looking for sources, found one that refuted women using more words. It doesn't change my stance on that I think there is a difference but it's nothing to make a big deal about. I don't think one gender is superior or inferior.

[deleted] · 2014-01-21T21:17:11+00:00

Nah. Im a feminist and I think were two separate creatures. Biologically, mentally, physically we are not the same. But we do deserve to be treated with the same respect and have the same opportunities and the same rights.

Terry_Bruce_Dick · 2014-01-05T12:42:23+00:00

I can't see how people would believe they are the same. Certainly, there's always the nature vs nurture argument to be had about how much they're different because of either cause. Even if we could get enough sets of clones with parents who are clones and control for income, etc, the experiment would still be unethical, so we never really will know.

[deleted] · 2014-01-05T21:10:46+00:00

[permanently deleted]

[deleted] · 2014-01-05T21:00:03+00:00

The testosterone and estrogen levels above the neck, are produced below the neck. That difference is common knowledge, so either you posed this question badly, accidentally, or purposely misstated it to make strawman feminists sound absurd. Try again.

[deleted] · 2014-01-05T15:12:03+00:00

There are differences. The male and female experience in life is different and shapes them in different ways in almost every culture.

[deleted] · 2014-01-05T18:35:28+00:00

TBPers will obfuscate and say, "of course there are differences but they're either cultural induced or not that important." That's there way of having it both ways.

nicethingyoucanthave · 2014-01-05T20:39:09+00:00

who here believes that men and women are entirely the same?

Blue pillers do.

When you say, "no seriously, we acknowledge there are differences!" you're lying. The reason I know you're lying is that you'll then go on to say, "...but, the differences are too small to matter" or you'll say, "it's impossible to know which are cultural and which are biological."

You may not be conscious of the lie, but there it is.

Those little caveats reveal your true position - there are no average cognitive or behavioral differences between men and women. And differences in outcome that we observe (for example, there being more male scientists) is a result of culture and furthermore our culture is oppressive to women.

That is indeed what you believe. It's amusing that you try to weasel out of it, because whenever it comes up in conversation, you reveal yourself. How many times have I made a statement like, "men and women are attracted to different things" and been challenged? That's how you reveal yourself. When you're incredulous to the very idea that men and women might have different motivations, responses, and values, you show your true self.

And don't act like it's such a huge deal that I'm telling you you believe something even though you're denying it. How many of you blue pillers have claimed TRPers are misogynists? You're doing to me the exact same thing I'm doing to you. If I say, "no seriously, I'm not" does that magically end the debate? Of course not. Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Title	Ok, who here believes that men and women are entirely the same?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	10
Comments	66
Date	January 5, 2014 12:36 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1uggd0/ok_who_here_believes_that_men_and_women_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/ok-who-here-believes-that-men-and-women-are.286401 https://theredarchive.com/post/286401

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