I'm jealous of female mate choice. I want this to stop.

tomowudi · 2020-02-25T01:48:50+00:00

Quite often people have stories about the way the world works that include part of the truth, but not the whole truth.

For example, your experience and how it differs from the advice people have given you.

However, your OWN story, in this thread, is also not the whole truth. It's not even the whole truth about your experience, because it relies on your story about WHY women react to you the way that they do. And it also includes a bit of your story about yourself, about who you are, and about how you present yourself is received.

The thing that seems to be tripping you up is your self-imposed limitations. Take this sentence for example:

In my head I used to think that a lot of girls wanted to be treated fairly and not any different because the girls and I thought the same thing applied to men but so far it hasn't really proved any fruit unless you are a rare exception.

You had a story that "girls" - this group of other humans that are different from you - just want to be treated:

Fairly
Not any differently from men

And the conclusion of that story is that it is only the RARE "girl" that wants to be treated this way.

But here's the facts without the story:.

Girls and boys are both human, and humans are mostly the same at basic levels. Only surface details, such as skin color, relative intelligence, life experiences, and our geographic circumstances really make any of us unique. We even have the same basic emotions, and those basic emotions exist to help us survive.
Our human emotions are calibrated for a savage world to help us survive life or death situations - and our civilized society is so safe that our anger and fear responses are too EXTREME for the non-lethal consequences of discomfort and disappointment that have replaced our life and death struggle.
Women and men emotionally need the same things to form social relationships, including sexual partnerships. Safety, Trust, Clear Communication, Boundaries and clear consequences for crossing them, and to feel useful, and to feel desired. That's everyone - male or female, gay or straight.
As individuals with different experiences, just like our language is different (a Brit calls you a Cunt as a compliment, and an American calls you a Cunt as an insult), so too are the things that make us feel safe, what qualifies as clear communication, what we trust, what makes us feel useful, and what makes us feel desired. Sometimes these differences in experience are gendered - men are bigger and women are smaller and so men feel useful by doing physical things while women feel useful by doing emotional things, etc.
Nobody believes they are an asshole. Everyone believes they are doing the best that anyone should reasonably expect given their circumstances. If they thought they were a bad person for what they did, or if they thought about it at all, they probably wouldn't do it. People do shitty things because they don't realize they are shitty at the time, for many reasons.
Because our brains take shortcuts, when we talk about differences between men and women, we sometimes forget that each man and woman is an individual, and those individual men and women are different from other men and women. So when we say things like, "women want to be treated equally" it is because PEOPLE want to be treated equally. But that doesn't mean you treat everyone the same. You wouldn't expect a a 90lb woman to lift up a 200lb box. That's isn't "fair" or "equal". That's absurd. What we mean is that we treat everyone equally because we treat everyone as INDIVIDUALS. So when you meet a stranger, do you treat them like everyone else, or do you first ask them how they want to be treated? Which is the point. Treating everyone equally means treating them like a stranger whose boundaries you have to learn because you respect their right to say no as EQUAL to yours. You treat people equally when you do your best to learn who they are as an individual.

Do you see how the facts are different from your story? It's not that your story isn't true. In fact, there is a lot of truth in what you have written.

But there's also a lot of truth that you have missed, and each missing piece of truth moves what you have written further and further away from the truth and closer to your STORY about reality.

A story that is in part made up of the same sort of discrimination that feminists are concerned with. Just as feminists prejudge men because of the male bad actors, don't you think its reasonable that ex redpill men judge women by the worst actors amongst feminists?

As for your jealousy... I have some good news for you.

You are better off being a large black man with the soul of a poet than you are a single woman. Because once you love yourself enough to not be concerned if you are impressing a woman, you will be able to have your pick of partners.

The reason is simple.

Do you know what makes someone feel safe?

A large, protective figure, and the consistent emotional calm that comes from someone with self-confidence. Leadership is certainty by proxy. If you are confident and secure because you feel safe with YOU... others will desire that sense of safety for themselves and learn to have confidence in YOU, which will make them feel safer.

And when you have confidence in yourself (meaning you aren't jealous of what you don't have), then you will be able to pay more attention to what others need. You will be better prepared to make them feel useful, or desired, because instead of worrying about what to say or what they think of you, you will instead be focused on them. Because you are good, and they are talking to you because they want something from YOU, and you have to listen to know what that is.

Self-confidence will give you an abundant mindset, and you will be HAPPY to help others and support them when your needs are met. This makes honesty EASY, which makes setting Boundaries EASY, which makes feeling safety and trust EASY because there are no surprises. Boundaries are a gift, because people want you to feel comfortable with them, and boundaries that are clearly and compassionately (without blame or contempt) communicated let people know exactly what to avoid if they want your happiness. And the people that don't respect your boundaries don't, so why would you invest more time and energy in keeping them in your life?

You are worried that you are missing out. That is why you are jealous. You are worried that the obstacles to a fulfilling relationship are too much for you to overcome as a large, black, poet of a man.

But your fear is insecurity. This is just not true. You are more than enough. You just have to start on your relationship with yourself first. Be enough for you, and then live your best life.

I promise you, if you already are feeling happy with who you are, the partner that you are desiring will show up. But it won't be love at first sight. It will take time. Because they will have to see you at your worst, and you will have to see them at their worst, and you will both have to decide that each other's worst is worth the trouble. This. Takes. Time. At least 2 years. Most of that 2 years should be spent figuring out your deal breakers and how to build a healthy relationship culture.

ro8e · 2020-02-25T00:38:25+00:00

edit: Fixed typos and formatting.

Men don't have to do pursuing, women don't have power over dating. It's a matter of socialization and personal experience / bias. There are women who pursue and men aren't obligated to accept any one who wants to date them.

I'm not sure what you mean by cavemen practices. Or how feminists defeat themselves.

Everyone wants to be treated with kindness. There must be another issue that keeps you from finding a gf. Btw, how old are you?

You don't fit the stereotype and that's absolutely ok. There are women who find big guys with the heart of gold attractive.

"No one" is a big exaggeration. I'm afraid you're generalizing or need to change your social circle.

Women have troubles with finding partners too. They fear being pumped and dumped or slut-shamed for their sexuality. Some can't even get matches on Tinder.

Have you been to r/menslib? I don't think it's feminists' job to think for men and solve their issues for them. Inb4, I'm not saying men's issues are unimportant or ought to be overlooked. I believe there should be some sort of meninist movement which feminists could support.

Again, men don't have to be the chasers and women do it too. Women's experiences aren't as monolith like you describe. Would you seriously look for a potential mate if he was a catcaller and a creep, really? These are red flags - this kinda men don't respect boundaries and neither care for someone else's well-being. It's like advising someone to dive into trash in hope they'll find something nice.

Do you have any platonic relations to women? Do you talk to them without the intention of finding a gf? It's good that you're looking to become self-aware and better yourself. It's just, the world ain't that simple like you describe.

PrideoftheAllFather · 2020-02-25T00:43:01+00:00

I can see where you're coming from, and I empathize with you.

I'm proud of you for putting yourself out there. I know it can become draining over time but it is necessary to repeatedly do it, for both men and women. Sometimes women do it in a different way, sometimes in the same way, and sometimes, regardless of their gender, someone doesn't want to or doesn't have the energy to put themselves out there like that. It is important to remember how we all have struggles, some big, some small, and we all have been molded by our experiences.

As you mentioned, there are a lot of issues due to how society was formed and societal norms have gotten in the way. I'm hoping that years from now things are different in a good way, but, for now, we have to deal with what we have to deal with.

You seem like you're on the right path though, even when the world has tried to set you astray. Go for being you, try to be a good person, try to make your life and others' lives good. In the end it all is worth it, even when you can't see it. The world is shit in a lot of ways and there are a lot of shitty people, so stepping up and trying to make it good helps more people than just yourself.

I think it sucks that you've been discriminated against because of how you look or act, but please just find yourself regardless of who that is. Someone appreciates you for who you are, even when you don't appreciate yourself. They may not be in your life right now, but they're out there somewhere. I appreciate all the effort you have taken to put your thoughts here, the effort you've made trying to improve your life and remember that equality is important, and the effort it has taken and took for you to put yourself out there each time you have.

So please, forget the bullshit of life every once in awhile and take a moment for yourself, caring for yourself and relaxing for a moment to recharge. Please know I appreciate you for opening up like this and trying each day. Take care, okay?

I_like_the_word_MUFF · 2020-02-25T02:56:16+00:00

All of your complaints would have been amplified two fold in the world before let's say 1950s feminism. We could go back to Susan B Anthony times, but as a black man you can see how it wouldn't have been better for you specifically.

So 1950s era feminism. You think sensitive men was what should have gotten you a date? Lol. Artist? A woman literally NEEDED a man who was strong enough to support her and children without any financial help from her. Women were rarely expected to work. You, with all your whining about having to work to get a woman who will even look at you is a joke. By now you should have had a career path, working on buying a house and either been through the military, journeymaned in a skill, or graduated from upper level education. That would have gotten you some serious upper level woman pre1950s.

Don't bullshit yourself. It's you. Nobody else's fault.

Laerrus_ · 2020-02-25T11:08:08+00:00

I can't get behind you complaining about how many Creeps and Weirdos catcall you because

Just wanted to react to this real quick.

I think women generally have more freedom then men, and men have more safety. It's easy for both parties to believe the other option is the better one. As you get older a lot of women kind of get used to creeps, but one memory I'll always have is that one time when I was fourteen I was followed home after work by a man at 11 PM petting my head and telling me all the sexual things he'd like to do to me. When I got home I cried and didn't dare to go outside alone for months. Keep in mind I was an actual kid. I've been in situations like this multiple times.

Now that I'm older and more 'intimidating' (than a 14 y/o) this doesn't happen to me as severe anymore, but the reason I hate catcallers so much is because if they're catcalling me it also means they'll do it to people who find it less easy to deal with it.

rhapsody98 · 2020-02-25T01:48:39+00:00

Please remember, romantic opportunities don’t just walk up to women. You think they do, but they don’t. Actually have an honest conversation with any woman and she will tell you, finding a good relationship is hard.

Nashboy45 · 2020-02-25T03:56:33+00:00

If your op or not, I’m gonna take you on a journey, particularly if your a man. Trust me and don’t be afraid to feel how you feel.

I agree with the frustration you feel OP. I don’t think many women face an attentionless life. Even if it’s bad attention, it’s still attention. And for those of us, man or woman, who feel that is lacking in our life, it is a man who definitely has the worse end of that stick to me. But that’s only because I lived on this end of it. I think I wouldn’t mind it though if our society in general would just acknowledge that being a man isn’t just hunky dory and that isolation and lack of love and lack of attention isn’t a big deal. I usually think about it like this. If a guy is willing to do something that would fuck up his life like kill or hurt someone, he didn’t think his life had much left to it anyway. He’s not a monster, he’s a person in a deep deep hole and he knows, just like every man is taught, that society doesn’t even look at the men in the hole much less think about helping him. He’s the monster, not the tormented.

I think that’s our real issue, men. It really doesn’t have anything to do with women. It’s the anxiety of knowing that pity doesn’t really exist in this world of men. So if you get a strange hand in life’s game, you’ve known your L was going to be a quiet long one for a long time and that the only way out was to yell and act out until someone takes you seriously. That concept can and does drive any man who’s dealt with struggle into insanity. Because you don’t want to hurt people. You want to love. You want to be considerate. But no one seems to consider you and your existence until you make fucking noise in their life that they don’t like.

I think I makes me angry when anyone, but especially women say anything about this struggle other than “Help me understand where you’re coming from.” It makes me angry because it’s not a world that they can even try to grasp because they live in an entirely different flip problem. “You should talk to someone about it.” For them to tell you to deal with it. “You don’t have to worry about your safety like us.” For a life no one cares about. “You’re just insecure.” No I haven’t even had a foothold on a standard to set for how to see myself. I’m still trying to be a person. I’m more than insecure; I’m not sure if I’m human because a big portion of the world is calling me a monster and sometimes I believe them. Because it seems like the people who get what they want are the people that are monsters in some capacity. They are forceful and loud or pushy and committed to getting what they want over considering what others need.

Yes it’s painful if you really get into the gears of it because even though we feel all of that, we don’t know how to say it, and even if we did, who would we tell? Who would really listen and just listen without feeling scared for their life or think you’re gonna hurt them or that you’re too dangerous and that your expression may convince someone who hurts like you to shoot up some place. It’s complicated and it’s really not about the woman. It’s society looking at us wrong. But society has always looked at every group ever wrong. In fact society has never gotten a single group right in classification, and I’m not surprised. We can’t expect the world to ever look at us right and while they will eventually see the horrible way they treated men in hindsight, we live in this time right now with these people.

In the mean time, I don’t think we should sit here and be hopeless because we have our own lives to live. We gotta get what we want from other people, into ourselves. Just because the world is fucking slow to keep up and learn about our needs as men doesn’t mean we should lie down and let it give us nothing. We stand strong not because that’s what men are supposed to do but because we want something more of ourselves. We wanna be happy too, we wanna be loved too, we wanna be taken care of and safe and held too. And there is so so so much more and more every day. And because we want it, I know we deserve it. That doesn’t mean we need to go out of our way to be monsters to get it (although I do get why people just end up saying fuck it and do that). We gotta get it out of our heads that having needs and wants and desires in the world makes us monsters. Because it doesn’t. And fuck the people they try to convince us that our desires are bad.

Don’t let the jealousy and frustration confuse you for too long. We want love and happiness even if other people think we are creeps or angry or bitter. We just wanna be happy. That’s all we need to know to ignore the people who aren’t worth the trouble and get in touch with people who make us feel one step closer to that goal. Every day I’m looking for something to be happy about because I’ll stand up for me if no one else will. I’ve seen me my whole life and I know I’m a good person, and I know I deserve it, and I know that no one can convince me otherwise. And i know that no matter what people think about what I do, I have been and will always be a good deserving guy in my eyes. A person who’s trying their best, a person who doesn’t want to hurt others but a person who has and probably will in the future. A person who gets a little better everyday at putting who they are on the table first and then picking the people who like what they say rather than trying to be the sad alone nice dude that doesn’t rock the boat. It’s scary but I’m a black dude who likes to write poems and play piano and watch nerd shit and love people and be loved. And I deserve to be too. So if I know that, then I have all the tools I need to at least start to be happy.

So god damnit, let’s be fucking happy, girl or no girl, because we’ve dealt with this problem all our lives with little no help. We like what we like and we are who we are and either people are about it or their stupid for thinking we should be otherwise. We’re professionals, and while we’ve lost our guidance along the way many times, we are still here. Don’t let women or attractiveness or manliness or the “how you should be’s” of life take you away from the point or make you doubt if you deserve happiness and love brother. You always have, you always did, and you always will. The world might not be sure if you do, but the world is stupid about most things. At least you be sure that you do deserve it. And maybe the world will tag along once they see you’re not gonna let it push you around about what you want. Maybe you too will learn that it’s the owning of who you are that makes you stronger and better all of the “should be’s” combined while genuinely compassionate to those you love. It’s the standing up for you that shows you could stand up for anything else. But always you first. You’re not a monster for standing up for you. I love me enough to love you too brother. And one day you’ll love you enough to love someone else maybe a woman, maybe a friend, maybe a stranger. But that’s what you want for you and you deserve it.

Della_A · 2020-03-21T18:25:28+00:00

I agree with you 10000% that this "men pursue, women wait to be pursued" bullshit has got to stop. I don't know if it's feminism or patriarchy or whatever the fuck that's to blame for this, but I loathe this situation.

As a woman who likes to initiate and pursue, it's not really any fun for me either. You guys are socialized that you have to pursue, if you like a girl you have to be the one to walk up to her and then arrange dates, pay for her meal or tickets and all that. From my perspective, females are being socialized to wait to be pursued, play hard to get, make the man jump through hoops to prove himself to them, and that if females do the pursuing, they don't have self-respect as women and are humiliating themselves. And that the men they pursue will take them for fools, and pump-and-dump them.

For someone of my temperament, waiting to be pursued is a nightmare, and even if it does happen, I don't like it. It doesn't give me an ego-boost, it doesn't move me at all. It's neutral or even irritating. It doesn't make sense to me to like a guy and wait for him to ask me out. It strips me of agency. So I said fuck that! What I do like is to be working on my plan for what the next step will be in trying to impress the guy I like. And I'm actually pretty good at it. If he treats me badly, it's his loss not mine. But I do feel the push-back from society for acting this way. Thankfully not from the guy I'm pursuing and not from my friends (because I don't associate with people who would give me shit for this), but in general.

I think that pursuing does not equate to leading, but quite the opposite. Pursuing someone is submissive behavior, because you're basically going up to them with an offer, putting yourself at the mercy of their decision. Leaders don't pursue, they wait for people to come to them. I actually want my man to lead, but when I have put myself under his leadership and he has accepted me. If a guy tries to dominate me without my prior permission, I interpret that as a threat and shit can get ugly.

Speaking of threats, I am baffled that people don't see how women initiating and pursuing would solve this creep issue. Women are smaller and not as physically strong. If a woman puts the moves on you, you as a man consider whether you want to take her up on it or not, that type of thing. If a man puts the moves on me, I start looking for ways to extricate myself from the situation should things get ugly. The way I see it, if the physically weaker approaches the physically stronger, there is less tension and also less potential of abuse by creeps. Women would be free to observe a guy's behavior while he's not trying to impress them or get at them. Of course, there will be some women who react badly to rejection, but in most cases they would have to be crazy stalker-level to pose a threat.

Title	I'm jealous of female mate choice. I want this to stop.
Author	defo18
Upvotes	8
Comments	74
Date	February 24, 2020 11:41 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/f90ln2/im_jealous_of_female_mate_choice_i_want_this_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/im-jealous-of-female-mate-choice-i-want-this-to.340217 https://theredarchive.com/post/340217