Feminists claim to help men too- when have you last heard a feminist talk about circumcision or any male issue?

Vista_Seagrape · 2021-07-19T15:09:56+00:00

Feminists always say the mens rights movement isn't necessary because feminism is enough to address men's issues. Ok....but when is the last...

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I don't know if i consider myself an MRA, but I've always found it sad and inequal how large scale feminist Instagram pages who have very good reach don't talk more about men's issues too. Feminism at its core might be about equality for all, but it needs to be made more apparent if they want it to be seen that way

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I've seen a lot of men talking about how men are abused MORE than women

It's a reach for sure, but I do think a lot of abuse towards men goes undetected, unreported, ignored, or dismissed. Even the victim themselves may be hesitant or unsure, and this seeing as this is common in women as well, one can only imagine how difficult it must be for a male victim to come out, knowing that society heavily frowns upon this "sign of weakness", and unlike for the former, there is no significant push to encourage him to come forth.

Things like abuse, it's a fickle thing regardless. These toxic stereotypes just add another element to account for. I have seen plenty of back and forth regarding this issue, but to me it shouldn't be a competition of who is more abused. The real inequality is the abhorrent lack of shelters for abused men, and the abhorrent lack of support for said shelters, from just about everyone and everything besides the mrm. We don't simply focus on inequalities, we focus on the unequal reaction to the inequalities as well.

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The list of issues that you mentioned in your post are things that I talk with other women about. Many of us consider ourselves motivated by social justice, rather than feminism per se, we do also talk about issues like the wage gap (which also affects POC, not just women). I've met some self-described feminists that claim that "true feminism" means women are recognized as the better sex, and I strongly disagree with that mindset.

My point is, maybe there are women you know that are discussing these issues that don't label themselves as feminists.

I realize you said "feminist organization or mainstream figure", but I'm suggesting that people on the ground DO care, so please don't lose hope.

I believe that the same society that supported many of the attitudes that build up toxic masculinity is also responsible for giving space for and supporting all of those healing from the trauma of being raised in that mindset (be a man, boys don't cry, etc etc).

I'm glad that you are talking about these issues, and I understand the need to vent about not feeling heard. I'm not trying to say you are wrong in your assessment, I am trying to (probably not effectively, sorry, these things are tricky without the context of vocal tone to guide intent) let you know that you are not alone in your concern, and that there are women who see your pain and also recognize it as being unacceptable.

You are not alone. You are seen and supported. 💖

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[–]make_me_a_good_girl -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I am not a feminazi. I work in a male dominated industry and have seen studies showing that putting black or female names on a resume makes both men AND women lowball or pass on potential hires. That's a contributor to the wage gap. I have had female managers tell me we shouldn't hire young female staff because "they will probably go off and have babies soon". I negotiated for higher salaries than I was offered in most of my jobs because my white, male friends, who I went to school with and had very similar experiences with, were open about their salaries. The wage gap is not the fault of men, it is a societal problem, but it is a real problem.

I understand many reasons why so few women pursue education and careers in STEM because I have done my own research. I am trying to understand the anger and fire that I am seeing in the men's rights movement, and while I understand things like "nonconsentual genital mutilation is wrong" I am sure there are deeper issues at play.

I am a lurker on this sub, and I guess I'll go back to that for a while to recalibrate since I am seeing that I use the wrong words and that my approach is wrong. Thank you for your feedback. I would like to suggest that civil conversation with earnest allies is helpful to promote your cause, and saying things like "you people" doesn't show any desire to separate me, an individual, from a group that you disagree with.

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"Don't tend to take" vs "Are not easily able to take due to societal pressures and hiring biases" are two different statements. There are a variety of reasons why women are not made welcome in roles with high risk pay, and that is not something "perpetrated by women". It is a societal problem that both men and women need to address together.

There can be BOTH a pay gap AND an earnings gap.

"A 2010 research review by the majority staff of the United States Congress Joint Economic Committee reported that studies have consistently found unexplained pay differences even after controlling for measurable factors that are assumed to influence earnings – suggestive of unknown/non-measurable contributing factors of which gender discrimination may be one."

"Eurostat estimated in 2016 that after allowing for average characteristics of men and women, women still earn 11.5% less than men. Since this estimate accounts for average differences between men and women, it is an estimation of the unexplained gender pay gap."

from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

11% of adjusted earnings (with variables like experience and industry taken into account) is nothing to scoff at.

When talking about non-adjusted earnings, women in Intermediate Role A are often unable to be promoted to Senior Role A because of sexist perceptions and promotion practices, the they will not be able to close the non-adjusted earnings gap because they will not be progressing in their career the way their male colleagues are. Good luck proving sexist promotions in court, also if you do prove it you'll be branded a shit disturber and ostracized within the company, denied future promotions and put on projects that suck or are already failing, and sometimes your reputation and thus your career is tarnished across smaller industries, especially if they are tight-knit boys clubs. When only the white guys on diverse teams get promoted it is unlikely a coincidence. I've seen great female and POC candidates passed over because Incompetent Johnny went to the same college as the VP of engineering. Visible lack of female representation in the C-suite despite years of women in the workforce is not because women don't want to be at the top, or don't have the gumption, or the drive.

There is a pay gap and an earnings gap. The earnings gap is not entirely due to choices that women make, either, as industries that become female dominated are often devalued. Or, like with computer programming which was largely a female career in the early days of computers (when computer meant human operator of fancy machines), when men take over and push out women, suddenly and industry starts paying a whole lot better and becomes exclusive and elite whereas previously it was not valued highly, as "women's work" often is not valued as highly.

https://www.sfu.ca/wwest/WWEST_blog/herstory-of-the-tech-industry-when-women-were-computers.html

From the article above:

"Therefore, there was a clear contradiction between the job descriptions and value of the work as compared to the actual work and capabilities of the women programmers during the mid-20th century."

There are plenty of other examples of how female dominated industries end up being devalued by society. So, even if there was no pay gap (which there is, even after adjusted pay), there are still problems with your assertion that women "choose" to take lower paid roles. When choice is available, we are still fucked over when too many of us make a switch I to a particular profession.

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My point is that not all feminists are the feminazis. I know many women's rights champions that believe that no race or gender can have equality without admitting to the advantages AND disadvantages that both they and people unlike them have had to experience in the past.

I do know what you mean with the drafting comment, since selective service in your country still seems to exclude women. (I am not American, but I try to learn when discussing things with others. Correct my mistakes, where they exist please).

To be fair to history, though, it looks like the last draft in the US military was in 1972 with processing suspended in spring of 1976. The first women admitted to a US military academy happened in the same year the draft was suspended, in 1976. So there has never been a time when the draft was in place and women were military members. Surely if a draft was successfully imposed again, there would be a debate about overturning that gender based eligibility.

Also, to be clear, I didn't mean that I think either men or women are the better sex. I was unclear when I was restating beliefs that I have heard others have espouse. I think the best sex is consensual, and that beyond that every person is an individual with their own rights and basic needs, with biology influencing the experience of those needs only slightly.

We all need good mental health care. We all need (hopefully free) access to life saving and life improving medicines (I'm Canadian, I value my mostly free basic health care), if someone needs glasses give them basic glasses, give diabetics free insulin, etc etc.

I am a liberal socialist first, and an anything else second. I mean socialist in the good way that people outside of America see it, not the bad way that many Americans perceive socialism (that's a different debate, let's not get stuck on me being a filthy scumbag socialist, please).

Assuming all feminists, or people that want to improve the situation for women, are drive by revenge colours your interactions with "the other side" and makes you see it as sides in a game where one comes out winner, rather than groups working to improve the lives of their special interest group, similar to how one person might donate to cancer research and not hear disease research without seeing others as their opponents.

We are in this together as humans, and I think there are more people that advocate for women's rights without wanting to reduce men's rights than is being acknowledged here.

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Oddly I have been accused of having deeply internalized misogyny because I am into BDSM, I am a service submissive and a switch, I am polyamorist, I enjoy sex immensely (I mean, one of my other posts is asking for tips for my first bukkake event, so clearly I'm immoral and infleunced by male desires, right?), etc etc.

I try to support men and women's rights, and by doing so I am told I am not the right kind of supporter by people on both sides.

I feel like I understand the male perspective less, so I am trying to learn. I'm sorry that it doesn't appear that I can effectively express myself as genuinely wanting male and female and race and age bias to be eliminated. I am truly trying to learn and become a better ally. By doing so, I hope I can help other women understand how they can be better allies. I'll work on my language use. Thank you for the feedback.

[–]make_me_a_good_girl -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

I am not on this subreddit to troll men. I am here, a woman, to better understand the causes that I cannot fully understand because I cannot live them as you do. I am also trying to help people that seem hurt and alone and abandoned, which was the overall emotional tone of OPs message as I read it, understand that not all women / feminists fit the broad brush strokes that they were painted in. It is hard to accept help from people you hate, so I am trying to show that not all women / feminists are evil man hating bitches (some are, and I don't associate with them or promote their agenda, but I realize that they still make life difficult for many men).

I said that I speak to female friends about these topics, I said that you are not alone. I am failing to see how those things are able to be qualified as "peddling disinformation".

As for being a feminist misandrist, I fail to see how my sexual preferences are relevant to my response. That said, I will clarify that I am a bisexual polyamorist who would prefer to live in something more like a free love commune than anything I will ever be able to actually participate in.

Of all of the things you have said, the one I disagree not with is about the wage gap. The wage gap between white men vs women and POC is proven in many studies. If more companies had open payrolls (which I believe would be positive for all races, genders, and ages) it would be an undeniable fact.

[–]dishwatersupper 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for coming onto the sub to try and get a different perspective. Ironically the majority of people here, as far as I can tell, aspire for that 'commune' style society too. Genuine equality where people aren't weighing up whose problems are worse and where people love and care for each other exactly the same without ANY need to differentiate between them or to slander and belittle each other. The majority of people here are calling out an imbalance and defending themselves against hateful comments and gaslit accusations. Whilst some women may feel they have sympathy for the issues men have they are usually following the false, feminist, socially driven narrative that 'men have it difficult sometimes but that it is our own fault'. For example that it's tough that men can't talk about their problems or show emotions. Which simply isn't true. We can, we do and we want to. But the reaction is different to when women do it. People simply do not care as much or even at all.

Also there is a big problem with the word feminist now. Using that word is automatically going to get people's backs up here because feminism has become (to put it very mildly) a very unfair, hateful and narcissistic agenda. Yes it might seem extreme to attribute feminist attributes to Nazis and fascism but that is exactly what is becoming (or has become). There are too many parallels for it not to be terrifying. There might be a spectrum within feminism but there is also a spectrum within racism and fascism too. It would be very tough to treat someone neutrally if they opened a conversation with them referring to themselves as a racist, but not the extreme kind.

I applaud you for coming on here to look for a different perspective and maybe to learn how others feel but to do so you need to come in neutral. Drop the term feminist and come in asking questions rather than giving your perspective before hearing what others have to say. Obviously debate is a good thing but wait and truly listen and think about what people are saying first.

Unfortunately, whatever feminism might have once been (whether good it bad) it is dead and something dark and evil has risen from its corpse. Everyone needs to forget the lies and hate spread by feminism and ignore the rewritten history and fear mongering it has created.

Come on here as a fellow human being, who happens to be female, and ask away. We have tried to do the same vice versa but we are monstrously vilified and our logic and reason get buried under immature and vicious stubbornness.

We all need to start a clean slate. Forget the past. Forget what we believe we know about others. Take out the gender, race, age etc of any issue and write it down. If it sounds unfair, bad, unjust, evil, cruel, prejudicial etc then it simply is. Then start filling in the gaps with specific subsets of people and see if your opinion changes between them. If it does then you are prejudiced. People need to start switching round genders (and other subsets), and seeing how they would feel if that were said or done the other way round, before touting it as a fair statement. We are all human beings capable of exactly the same emotions, fears, abilities, prejudices etc etc. If we start treating each other the same then we will become the same. We need to sit and listen to each other without groups and labels and we need to respect and be kind to everyone.

[–]make_me_a_good_girl 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]dishwatersupper 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

**pt.2 - Continued from above**
My goodness I've gone on a rant. I wrote it out and it was too big to post so I've had to split it into 2. I won't reread as it was a stream of consciousness so apologies if it all doesn't make as much sense as intended.

There is plenty more I can say but I'll save you from my ranting :)

I am writing though as I DO appreciate you coming here without throwing vitriolic accusations at men. Yes we may disagree with some of what you said but you have come here to learn more about how we feel and think and we can benefit from hearing from someone on a potentially opposing viewpoint that is genuinely open to discussion and compromise.

I honestly think you could learn a lot from dropping the word feminist from your self description. It really is becoming similar with the term 'Nazi'. It might sound extreme but when you have social media abundantly throwing out terms like 'killallmen' and talking about male population control and mocking concepts such as castration and emasculation (amongst many others evil concepts) you can maybe start to see parallels. We are literally being demonised when we have done nothing wrong as individuals. Just like the atrocities in Nazi Germany started out as anti-Jewish sentiments this is where we fear we are heading. So to say you are a feminist but not an extreme one will still get you the same response as 'i am a Nazi but not an extreme one'. 'I feel sorry for Jews as they can't help being less intelligent and dirty but I'm not of the extreme opinion they should be exterminated'. That is why people started off debating politely and it is now turning into unpleasant and unkind responses to the word feminist.

Head into a forum and say I'm a Nazi but not an extreme one and you'll get the same unpleasant and dismissive responses. Whilst I am uncomfortable with people talking to you, and others, that way I can actually start to see why. Our meek and pleeing attitudes so far are going nowhere regardless of how obvious our arguements are. We are still being kicked and people are starting to bite. It's the only way we are going to be heard if nothing changes.

Again, i'm sorry you got unpleasant responses but unfortunately we may have to start accepting that certain terms and labels have become very offensive. Please don't let it out you off trying to learn and teach about these important issues.

Drop the word feminist in general for yourself and walk into debate saying you are a women who wants equality and are curious to hear others' experiences. You will (I very much hope) experience sympathy and enthusiasm to put our points across to a genuinely curious and receptive ear. And if you have issues or concerns with what you are being told, of course further discuss this. I hope that this would allow a calm and useful discussion.
A final point, we are so poor at analysing that we seem to have the need to use the most obvious visual differentiators to segregate things such as good and bad. Male and female, black and white, young and old. Society seems to think that these are the defining factors that contribute to how we interact with the world. If we're wanting equality let's accept that all the above are the SAME. It's characteristics that should segregate people. Simply put, bad people do bad things, good people do good things. You get both in every 'type' of people. Let's start calling out unpleasant, manipulative, evil etc people as being the cause of wrong in the world. Let's not look at what they look like or how they sound etc and use that as a guide.

No need to reply if you don't want. I know I've written an essay but it felt cathartic to write to some extent and I feel like you are a receptive person so thank you for reading!

[–]make_me_a_good_girl 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm 100% with you on sexism and ageism and racism being unacceptable.

I have not claimed to be a feminist, I have said that I am new to the MRA movement, and that my understanding of feminism is that it argues for equal(ising) rights by focusing on issues affecting women, like BLM does for issues affecting POC. I do think that (and have often experienced) women in the workforce are still not treated equally, despite some people here adamantly insisting that we are. I do know women and men who identify with that label here in Canada, where it seems it is less extreme. For instance, I believe I run in progressive circles online and IRL, and I have never heard or seen the phrase killallmen. That is hateful and unacceptable and I would be very upset with and argue with anyone that thought that that was acceptable.

I have claimed to be female (because I am) and I have (unknowingly) used feminist trigger phrases because I thought they were commonly used terms across race and gender. I will avoid using the word "feminism" on other post replies (obviously I can't un-say it here), and I will look into the phrase Toxic Masculinity more to understand how it is being interpreted as anti-male, as opposed to anti-violence and anti-aggression which is how I think it was intended.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and for helping me to understand.

I know from my own life that constantly having to explain your experience can be draining, to explain the ways that you feel discriminated against is sometimes positive (I'm glad I could help someone understand their bias) and sometimes frustrating (how are we still finding people that don't know about XYZ?). Thank you for taking the time to positively interact with me. I appreciate your efforts.

[–]dishwatersupper 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Hi again 😆 just replying to this part of the message too. You're right, you didn't claim to be a feminist in your original post. I'm assuming it was your defence of feminists that led to the assumption and the negative response.

It honestly is great that you are wanting to learn about the MRA movement. I promise you a large number of us have tried doing the same on Women's Rights subs but we get completely attacked. I appreciate you sadly too did get some abusive comments but I hope that this conversation shows that communication and learning is possible on both parts even if it is after having to tread sensitively :) from my experience most people are welcoming.

Ironically I believe that a lot of people consider Canada to be one of the worst places for men's rights.... I could be wrong on this. It's probably not my place to say that as I don't know enough about Canada's politics but I believe it is considered to be a more insidious type of prejudice than some of the more blatant extremism. Take that as speculation, not as definitive opinion or fact.

Toxic masculinity is definitely a hugely offensive term. It implies not only that all violence and aggression is male, which isn't true, but is used to alienate and blame men in innumerable situations that don't have any specific relation to men. It also is used as a negative slur for things that people simply have decided they don't like about men. Not that there is actually anything wrong with those traits. It's just been taught as bad because it is fundamentally male. And the casual way negative words are thrown around in front of our faces has a much bigger impact than maybe people think. As I'm writing this the character on TV said 'because men are useless". We keep insidiously adding casual comments like that into everyday life how do you think it will affect our mental health? And there are children growing up hearing these things. Young girls being taught men are 'useless' and 'bad' and young boys thinking they are 'useless' and 'bad'. And much worse is said. It's a much bigger problem than people realise. And it is, and will, have a huge negative impact on the mental health of men and boys.

Many things could be listed about the negative aspects of women and the impact they have on societal situations (and admittedly they often are on here in retort to accusations against men) but we don't have terms for them. We never have as far as I'm concerned (please correct me if I'm wrong). But if there were any terms against the stereotypical negatives of women those terms would quickly be rightly snubbed and labelled as offensive and prejudicial. And any time anyone talks negatively about a woman everyone gasps and jumps to their defence. If people make negative comments or stereotypes about men, people cheer and join in. It's offensive, humiliating and makes us feel unloved, unwanted and fearful.

Also, when people talk about the hardships of women in society and history, they firstly assume that this was the thinking of men. Which it wasn't. Sure the most powerful people in history have mostly been men but people forget that those in power are such a minority and yet they get linked to men as a whole. Men were just as oppressed by those in power as women. We were not separated by gender but by class and power. If someone was to blame for past decisions it would be the 0.1% of people on power against ALL the rest of us. That's my second point. People seem to assume, and it is widely taught, that women were oppressed and men had it easy. Not true. Men were just as oppressed by those in power as women. Maybe in different ways but just as much. If it were simply men in power would we be forcing ourselves to work in the most dangerous jobs, to work longer even though we live shorter lives, to have less access to healthcare even though we have greater numbers of illness with some diseases and greater serious mental health concerns (suicide), stricter laws and sentencing etc. Men couldn't vote just like women couldn't. The years we were all allowed to vote are actually very similar. Yes it was only men that could vote historically but that was again the 1% of powerful men that controlled all decisions. 99% of men had to fight alongside women for suffrage.

I'm throwing out some of the more obvious examples that I'm sure you've heard numerous times before. I'm sure there are far more striking examples and you will no doubt find them on here but I'm using them just to show that things aren't always as they seem. We all need to start opening our minds to the possibility that what we are taught and assume is wrong. We need to stop treating people as parts of groups and think of them as individuals. If you hear of a man, or group of men, doing something horrible. That's not men. That's just some horrible people. Likewise you don't have to fear or think badly of a man you know who is seemingly nice but you assume there must be negatives about him just because he's a man. If he seems like a nice person... He's probably a nice person! Exactly the same for women.

You're right, it can be draining repeating yourself and having to explain over and over. But that's usually because you're usually talking to a brick wall. A brick wall that wants to topple down on top of you and crush you for no other reason than it can. But whilst I have spent a loooong time writing these EXTREMELY long posts 😆 it has been worth it. I'm not pretending that I have changed your mind on anything but I hope something positive has come from our talking. I know that at the least I appreciate your willingness to listen without attack or aggression and I too appreciate your time writing your replies and comments.

I'll leave it there as I'm spent 😆 but thank you again and I hope you get a better welcome and some helpful insight if you come back on here again to chat and seek opinions and answers.

Here's to a genuinely equal world where we can all get along without aggression, negativity, hatred and aspersions and where we all love and respect each other as human beings! :)

[–]make_me_a_good_girl 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]dishwatersupper 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]gundamjazz 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]dishwatersupper 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Hi again, thanks for the reply. Yes, I was unhappy when I saw some people's reactions to you and I did call them out on it. But after a few back and forths with them I can, to an extent, see where they are coming from. I myself have had so many attempted conversations with feminists online and in person and they are all very one sided. We try to debate and reason but there is never any desire on their part to listen or try to empathize. They have made up their mind about the 'evils' of men and no matter how pleasant and reasonable we are in our manner of discourse we are shouted down and humiliated. You keep doing that and people eventually snap. They realise their reasoning and debate fall on deaf ears and the only avenue left is to start being unkind and calling out feminism for what it is. A fascist, narcissistic and prejudicial agenda that wants superiority over others and to dehumanise others (predominantly men). People are reaching breaking point and snapping.

Maybe someone tells someone else they have been bitten by a Pitbull and that person suddenly blames all dogs for being aggressive and unfriendly. Every other friendly dog happily walks up to that person with their tail wagging, tongue out and happily wanting to play and socialise. But that person now hates dogs so kicks every dog that they see. No matter how kind that dog is, no matter how often it fetches your slippers, no matter how often it sits and begs you for comfort and attention with sad puppy eyes, that person kicks it and claims how all dogs are evil and will bite. Funnily enough, you keep kicking those nice friendly dogs they will eventually start to bark and growl at you. That is what's happening now. And I hope that it doesn't come to the stage where they start biting.

Sorry for the long analogy. But I think they are very useful. I probably did a bad job with this one but in my head it's appropriate. The vast majority of men are kind, loving, selfless humans who go above and beyond for others and especially for women. A small number of evil people, who happen to be men in these cases, do some horrendous things and women decide that all men are the same as those creatures, regardless of our constant pleas, conversations and proof to the contrary. They simply want to kick the dog. No matter what the dog has done. No matter how kind and loyal the dog is.

And then they refuse to believe that they themselves are capable of wrongdoing. The things that are brought to the public eye are either blamed somehow on a knock on effect from men's actions or they are given excuses such as mental health issues, whilst men are never allowed such graces for evil or bad behaviour.

What is interesting is that you'll see people who stand for men's rights defending themselves against unfounded accusations. That is what we are doing. Whilst feminists are spending their time blaming and rewriting history. Men's rights are focusing on undoing the damage done by feminists whilst feminists are creating this illusion of a perpetually negative world where they alone are victims.

Imagine if you, as an individual, were suddenly blamed for all the wrong in the lives of those around you. Even though you as an individual have had no input into those wrongdoings. You have done nothing to these people and don't even hold the beliefs of those that have wronged them. But everyone turns to you with their fingers pointed and starts shouting, calling you names, humiliating you, cutting off your human rights and threatening you. Imagine that you calmly and rightly try to protest and tell them they are mistaken and you had nothing to do with any of it. But the more you protest the more you are blamed. And the more accusations come your way. Before you know it, you are the reason for all the wrong in the world. Despite being a nice, conscientious, hard working, responsible and caring person who has believed in the principles of genuine equality the whole of your life. It's not nice.

In fact it is so bad people are wanting to take their lives as they can't live in a world where such negativity and blame is forced into them. There is no escaping it. We feel trapped and defensive and desperate to show that these are lies that are being told about us. We grow up looking forward to getting out of school in the hope that bullying stops when people become adults. But instead the bullies are worse. So much worse that they can get away with things like claiming we don't deserve to live, or don't deserve rights and respect. And somehow the bullies convince everyone that we are actually the bullies, when all we are doing is defending ourselves against accusations of things we haven't done! And when we point out the SAME things that we are being blamed of happening to us we are laughed at and scorned. It's baffling and frightening.

Feminists probably wouldn't believe it but the VAST majority of men prior to this new wave of feminism would very openly stand for women's rights and equality. In fact we still do! We honestly believe that people should be treated the same. And we recognise some of the unfair hardships women have had to face in society. We also recognise the unfair hardships men have had to face in society, that nobody else wants to acknowledge. Try having an open conversation with men about the hardships they face without having to think of it as a competition or as trying to belittle women's issues. They can coexist! And regardless of a perceived hierarchy of importance (it will differ between people) one should not be ignored over the other. If one child is beaten so hard by bullies they are unconscious in the playground but another child is only battered and bruised do we tell the second child to 'get over' it because they aren't as hurt as the first? All problems are problems. We want everyone to have as nice a world as possible.

Maybe some people don't understand how we are feeling but we, as men, are being forced into a life where we are hated, oppressed cannot speak out to defend ourselves and we are regularly humiliated at the glee of others. It's a thoroughly depressing and dark world for us to live in. It's simply making life miserable for us and we don't deserve it. We as individuals deserve the right to live a happy and comfortable life. If we as individuals do wrong, then blame us as individuals. Don't blame everyone.

And please be aware of the media influence. Stories against men are highly manipulated and brought to the forefront of people's attentions. Start living your life based on your own experiences of those around you. Sure there will be people that have horrible experiences of lots of men treating them terribly and their views may understandably be skewed. But that is also the same of some men with some women. And now with feminism forcing such hatred on us our views on women are unfortunately being skewed too. Deep down we know that women aren't inherently bad or unkind. Quite the opposite. But feminism is making us wary of them as we essentially flinch every time we are spoken to or about. We are being conditioned to expect everyone to hate us and blame us and it's completely ruining our lives. And what is worrying is that that's seemingly what feminists want. We just want to love and be loved. **pt. 2 below:**

[–]make_me_a_good_girl 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I see your dog analogy, and I think we can both agree that if one dog bites you, the solution is not to kick all dogs but to accept that not all dogs bite. This takes time, and often counselling, but the problem in that situation is the person acting aggressively towards all members of a group (dogs) due to the actions of a single member of that group. I think this is what you were saying with the rest of your points.

There is a point where you are bitten by enough dogs that the only reasonable conclusion can be "most dogs bite", but again that doesn't mean pre-emptively kicking them is right. Finding ways to avoid them would be better, the way humans avoid going near grizzly bears because chances are it won't end well for the human.

As far as blame goes, I am technically Catholic. I am Canadian. This is not a great time to be Catholic in Canada as a large number of residential school unmarked child graves are being discovered. I did not kill those children, nor did anyone I am related to as my family is relatively new to Canada. However, that does not mean I am absolved of the responsibility to work towards reparations for the harm and the trauma that was inflicted by a group that I belong to on a different group in the past. I did not kill children or take them from their families to re-educate them and remove their culture. Yet, I can be part of the solution by understanding the immense pain and suffering this caused, and working to make sure such things are rectified and can never happen again. I do believe that we are responsible for the sins of our forefathers, and that we can work to reconcile the injustices of our past. There is no undoing what is done, but we can definitely work towards something better.

[–]dishwatersupper 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Thanks again for the reply. With regards to the dog analogy I initially said that it was about someone telling you they'd been bitten by a dog and you therefore fearing them, not necessarily that you've been bitten yourself.

Sure, if someone has been bitten time and time again they will have an aversion. But I fundamentally believe that women aren't being damaged by men time and time again. No more so than vice versa. It is a false narrative that is being told to create fear and hatred amongst women. There are countless examples on this subreddit of ways in which women consistently treat men badly and of how media is manipulated to suit the feminist narrative. And the media, and some women (and men) refuse to accept they exist. Women and feminists get very defensive over the slightest accusation that they could be doing something wrong and yet people are surprised men are defensive about being told we're doing everything wrong. There are also countless stories on things that men have to deal with that women don't. That's not said to weigh it up against each other as I've explained before I am against that, but it's to show that we equally have issues that are unique to our gender, race, age etc. As people we will experience unpleasantness throughout life. And yes, maybe we will experience more unpleasantness from the opposite gender but that could be put down to things such as heterosexual relationships as the vast majority of relationships will go wrong and end at some point so something negative has usually caused that. There is a counterpoint for every argument that feminism brings up and again I think that shows a balance between genders and that we should work together to correct it.

I do not believe that men are worse to women. I do not believe that women are worse to men (excluding feminists). We go through life and up until now have been rolling with the punches. Women have started to rightly bring their issues to the public's attention over the last few decades but men have been very quiet about their's. There seems to be a need for there to be only one victim and one perpetrator in the story when the answer is we are both equally in need of protection and consideration in society.

As for feminism. I believe they are probably now some of the worst people in society. They are very much of the school of 'do as I say not as I do'. They claim to be aware of all the terrible prejudices that people have had to endure in society and then they re-enact them tenfold on those who don't deserve it without justification. They are at best hypocritical and at worst sociopathic. I honestly think with more open discussion and less preemptive hate on both parts a large proportion of women would drop the title knowing what it now stands for and what that means to those it effects.

As for the Catholic element, yes there have been some awful things happening over there in Canada. Maybe there is where we differ though. I would put zero blame on you as a Catholic for those incidents. Unless you were there doing it, your beliefs have nothing to do with those evil people and there is no responsibility on your part to right anything. Taking responsibility for something that you are already against doesn't compute with me. As someone who wouldn't do that, you are already doing your part to stop it. Sure, stand up against it happening but stand up to those individuals. I'm not going to be throwing stones at every Catholic I see because of a few evil people. Your link stops at the descriptive name of your religious beliefs. You have no guilt or shame to feel. You are only responsible for the feelings and actions of yourself. Likewise, as a woman I don't think you have anything to apologise for in the name of the evils of feminism. As a feminist however, I feel you have a responsibility to recognise the damage it can cause.

[–]make_me_a_good_girl -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]dishwatersupper 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

One final reply to this if you don't mind. In my mind there is a difference between fighting for a good and just cause that isn't of your own doing and taking responsibility for something. Most men do, and have for a long time, fought against injustices that they haven't caused whether that be caused by other men or women (or any other 'group'). That has never been a problem. People on subs such as these aren't saying they don't care about horrible things happening to other people and they aren't saying that if it doesn't affect them it doesn't matter. What they are saying however is that they DO support stopping the evils in the world and they WILL do their part but they won't be held accountable for something they, as individuals, didn't do. The majority of men have been far more supportive of social issues than others will allow. In fact, rightly or wrongly, we have grown up in an environment where we, as men, are protectors and we mostly adhere to that on instinct. We are inherently social beings and men seem to form strong and lasting bonds and that protective nature spreads across those networks and over those we love and care about including society as a whole. That's what's so baffling. So many of us have spent our lives putting others needs first (I'm not saying women don't of course) and it hits hard when we are told quite the opposite. Human beings largely spend their lives in servitude of a greater societal need and men are just as much a part of that as anyone else. Our input is not only valuable but essential. We support solving the issues that women face and the vast majority of us have done our all to live by moral standards that allow all to be safe and happy in their lives. Obviously not everyone does that. Those that cause misery and pain are vile creatures. We don't agree with those that make life miserable or fearful for ANYONE. We will fight against that, just as we were doing before feminism came running in with fists raised. But we also want recognition that men too have issues and, like we do for women, it would be decent and right to have support for that.

I would never condone any of the wrongs done to women. And I go out of my way to do everything in my personal power to try and prevent it. I believe most people do. Similarly to you wanting to "take responsibility" for something you aren't to blame for with the Catholic issue, could it not also be said that you might not be to blame for men's issues, but maybe you could take on the "responsibility" of a damaged society and the needs and problems both Men and Women face together.

We need you on board :)

[–]gundamjazz 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]make_me_a_good_girl -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I have not said I was a feminist, I am a woman that believes in social justice.

I was saying that many people see feminism as an equality movement, including women that I know who would be shocked to hear it described as a hate movement, though there are definitely fringe elements of feminism that see themselves as right to hate men (I disagree).

I am trying to have a civil discourse here and let someone that was hurting, OP, understand that not all women are hateful, not all people that advocate for women's right's want to remove men's rights. You can donate to a cancer charity without thinking that people who donate to heart disease charities are monsters. You can have discussions with people and understand other experiences and viewpoints without compromising your own values.

I legitimately joined the Men's Rights group because I wanted to understand these things more and try to do my part to help heal wounds caused by the minority of women who don't want men to have equal rights with women. If I am using triggering phrases, or terminology I would like to learn to be a better ally.

Telling me to go away helps neither of us improve our understanding or our positions in the world.

What would you have liked to see from someone coming here to learn as an ally? Perhaps that warrants its own post.

[–]gundamjazz 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jakeybaby125 9 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

The wage gap doesn't exist and 'Toxic Masculinity' is a harmful term that demonises men. And, yes 'true feminism is about misandry and female superiority. Where are the feminists who are trying to solve the education gap? Where are the feminists who are trying to solve the workplace deaths gap? Where are the feminists who are trying to reform the court system? Actions speak louder than words. Also, another thing along with the mental health 'Toxic Masculinity' bullshit is that, when you want men to open up, you want them to open up in a feminine way because women don't understand how men express emotion. For you, with expressing emotion it's either your way or the highway. Another thing, even when we do try and get these things sorted, you have the good ol' feminists turning up to protest and shut them down

[–]make_me_a_good_girl 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

The wage gap does exist, on that we will have to agree to disagree.

Toxic masculinity is when men are told that they are only worth what their body offers a woman, that they need to bury their feelings, that they need to "take it like a man" rather than seek the mental health services they may need, among other horrible things that boys are taught.

You have made a lot of generalizations about me without ever having met me. I'm trying not to fall into the same trap. I'm going to intentionally not address those because I think we both know they were overly broad.

I understand that there are problems that feminists aren't focused on. There are problems that black lives matter activists aren't focused on. Just because someone is trying to solve one problem doesn't mean they are opposed to other people championing other causes.

I'm trying to learn more about what matters to men's rights advocates so that I can be the kind of advocate that you are looking for. Thank you for your patience, and for expressing your pain to me. I understand that it is difficult to talk with people who seem to not be in the same side as you, I'm trying to show that we can all be in the same boat rowing towards a more equal humanity without getting lost in labels or the fact that I can want to advance women's rights AND men's.

[–]Jakeybaby125 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

We can't because it's a fact that it doesn't

That's not 'Toxic Masculinity'. That's either toxic gender roles or, as you guys say with 'internalised misogyny', these men have internalised misandy. Also, you are again ignoring the point I attached onto it in that men already do express their emotions but in a different way to women.

If I have, I'd like you to point them out. I didn't say you specifically, I said people like you

They very much are. Feminists oppose equal custody, equal rape laws, push the Duluth Model, protest outside and shut down mens mental health awareness shelters, send bomb and death threats to those in their movement who are even remotely sympathetic towards men and peddle false statistics like the wage gap to suit their own agenda

Here's a tip: drop the bullshit that is the wage gap and toxic masculinity. Those are inherently anti-male. They don't help men, they act as a detriment towards men. I have no pain. What I have is anger towards people like you who come onto here saying that you're trying to 'be an ally' but spew the same feminist bullshit others within your movement do. We can be in the same boat when we acknowledge that some things the feminists say that you believe are bullshit. Btw, it's not a fact that you can want to advocate for both otherwise you wouldn't be saying it's 'toxic masculinity' that's preventing men from coming forward. Men are talking. Society isn't listening

[–]make_me_a_good_girl 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

I have never met a feminist in real life that would condone let alone participate in any of the things you mentioned. Those are the extremists, and I agree that they are filled with hate and that they do not represent what many women see as the crux of feminism, which is equal rights. In the same way BLM advocates can want equal rights while advocating for marginalized minorities, feminists can want equal rights while advocating for marginalized women.

Admitting there is a wage gap is not anti-male, it is recognizing hiring biases that repeatedly show that female and non-white candidate names get offered lower salaries by both male and female hiring managers. It is a problem at a societal level, and thus is not the fault of men, and thus is not anti-male. If we could show that the same resume with different names on it would consistently get the same offer, then that would be equal pay for equal work, which is not what we see now. Advocating for equal rights, equal pay for women and minorities does not mean taking away rights from men. Rights are not a limited quantity. A rising tide lifts all boats (that aren't artificially tied to the sea bed).

I don't doubt that men express their feelings differently. Talking about toxic masculinity does not deny that there are different ways to express your emotions. Toxic masculinity is violence against others, bullying, aggression, normalizing sexual assault as "boys will be boys" or victim blaming, and homophobia. None of those things have anything to do with expressing your emotions. So while you are right that society needs to do a better job of making safe spaces for men to communicate their feelings, and of listening actively when men do communicate, that can exist alongside a discussion of unnecessarily physical and confrontational behavior that was glorified in the 70's and 80's as what "real men" do (which is definitely bullshit).

[–]Jakeybaby125 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

I have never met a feminist in real life that would condone let alone participate in any of the things you mentioned.

They're still doing it

Those are the extremists

And those 'extremists' are the ones who are making and changing the laws

crux of feminism, which is equal rights

If it is, what's it done for men?

In the same way BLM advocates can want equal rights while advocating for marginalized minorities, feminists can want equal rights while advocating for marginalized women.

Both have the same goals for the people in their movements. For BLM activists, it's black supremacy. For feminists, it's female supremacy

Admitting there is a wage gap is not anti-male

It's doesn't exist. Full stop

it is recognizing hiring biases that repeatedly show that female and non-white candidate names get offered lower salaries by both male and female hiring managers.

Again, not true. Look into what kind of things they're aiming for

which is not what we see now.

Yes it is. Women are paid less because they work less hours

equal pay for women and minorities

Which they already have

does not mean taking away rights from men.

Which is what feminists are currently doing

Talking about toxic masculinity does not deny that there are different ways to express your emotions.

Yes it does because you are saying that men can't express their emotions unless it's in a feminine way

Toxic masculinity is violence against others, bullying, aggression, normalizing sexual assault as "boys will be boys" or victim blaming, and homophobia.

That's not Toxic Masculinity. That's, if you like to use internalised misogyny, internalised misandy. Also, aggression is perfectly healthy in men. It's not 'Toxic Masculinity' that's the problem. It's lack of masculinity. Our society is way too feminised

Or victim blaming

That's what you're doing with this whole 'Toxic Masculinity' bullshit

None of those things have anything to do with expressing your emotion

Yes they do because society complains about men not opening up enough but what they mean is that men are not opening up in a feminine way

So while you are right that society needs to do a better job of making safe spaces for men to communicate their feelings, and of listening actively when men do communicate,

Without the added victim-blaming bullshit that is 'Toxic Masculinity'. Read the survey's done on it. Men get the messaging behind it. What they don't like is the term so stop using it

that can exist alongside a discussion of unnecessarily physical and confrontational behavior that was glorified in the 70's and 80's as what "real men" do (which is definitely bullshit).

Again, statistics would indicate that to be false. Women find that attractive in men. Don't blame the men for what women want. Another thing to point out is that that stuff can help and that is how men sometimes express their emotions. Remove that and you've got society today in the West: an overtly feminised hellhole filled with soyboys and so-called 'incels' who have no idea where they're going in life. They need the behaviour you've described as unnecessary to do something with their lives. They need that aggression. They need that drive

[–]make_me_a_good_girl 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jakeybaby125 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

You do realise the founders are literal Marxists right and they exploited it for their own gain? That's not a good thing. Also, he's it is about black supremacy. They're currently pushing CRT rn which is racist. Feminism is about female supremacy because of its belief in a patriarchy and what it's done in regards to education, Title IX and the workplace

How can it not be? I'm saying factual statements and you don't like it because it's breaking the feminist dogma you e been brainwashed into believing and yes I'm being confrontational and aggressive because you're peddling factually false information like the wage gap. It's been debunked over and over and over again but it's been peddled so much naive people believe it. Women are not paid less than men for the same work as that is against the law and has been for decades now

We are not because you keep peddling verifiable false information. I'd like to see a positive side to either of those movements that supposedly 'help' the people they despise

[–]make_me_a_good_girl 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jakeybaby125 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]gundamjazz 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ok_Significance_7038 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]make_me_a_good_girl 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ok_Significance_7038 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]make_me_a_good_girl 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Punder_man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Just to be as brief as I can.. I do not believe the wage gap exists..
There most certainly is an EARNINGS gap between men and women.. but that is mostly due to the decisions men make vs the decisions women make.

If the pay gap existed then the majority of the work force would be women.. I would not have a job if my employer could get away with paying women less than what they pay me for the same job..

If the wage gap were a thing businesses would absolutely discriminate against hiring men because it would save them thousands upon thousands of dollars in expenses.

As I said.. i'm willing to agree to an overall earnings gap.. but generally speaking.. when you compare what a male nurse earns per hour vs what a female nurse earns per hour you'll find that they earn the same amount per hour.

The difference is the male nurse is more likely to work more / longer hours / overtime and that alone will lead to the male nurse EARNING more than the female nurse..

I can guarantee that if you compare the wage of a man working at Mc Donalds (or any other fast food restaurant) with a woman working at the same store.. they will be paid the same hourly wage.

ergo.. the Wage gap doesn't exist but the earnings gap exists because of the choices women make compared to the choices men make.

[–]make_me_a_good_girl -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The gap is complicated, I agree.

There are industries, like low wage fast food workers, that don't have many significant wage gaps. There are choices some people make that result in fewer hours worked, certainly.

Companies in the knowledge worker sphere want to hire "the best" talent, so your assertion that hiring cheap would be the norm is not true there. Also, due to unconscious bias, most people hire people that look like them. So, if there are two identical resumes, the team will choose the one that looks more like who they have, and often that tends to still be white males. When you take names out of the equation a more equal distribution of qualified women and POC candidates are often selected for roles.

I agree that there is an earnings gap, but that doesn't preclude a wage gap from also existing.

[–]gundamjazz 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Punder_man 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Firstly, thank you for your input.. please ignore the down votes..

I guess the idea the OP was trying to get across is that we are bombarded with articles from "feminists" that either:

1) Push all the blame for everything wrong with society onto men
2) Try to placate men by claiming "Feminism cares about men's issues too!!"

Only to have "feminists" shout down at us about taking the focus away from "Women's issues" or that we're engaging in "Whataboutism" or even worse the classic "Go have your own discussions!!"

So we go hire out a venue with the idea of discussing some of these issues and lo and behold the feminists protest, send death / bomb threats to the venue owners and get the discussion cancelled under the guise of "Its not about discussing issues affecting men, its about spreading misogyny!"

Now. with all that said, I am fully aware that there are many women out like like yourself whom do not ascribe to the 'Feminist' label and are more egalitarian in their views.
But when it comes to feminists who claim "Feminism is fighting for men too" it gets frustrating when we hear it over and over again and yet we see no movement towards fixing many of the issues listed in the OP other than getting an insulting placation of "Once we fix the issues affecting women all of the issues affecting men will be fixed too!"

Which is downright insulting because it implies that the issues above which mainly affect men are now being classified as "Less important WOMAN'S issues"

Sometimes I wish, instead of playing some weird version of "Victim Olympics" we could just come together and agree that X sucks for both men and women so we should fix it.

For example.. instead of arguing over FGM being worse than Male Circumcision.. couldn't we all just agree that the right to bodily autonomy should be something the girls AND boys have? because at the moment we only recognize giving girls the right to not have their genitals mutilated.. we could easily have the UN extend the same right to boys.

For a more woman focused issue.. I think its awful that there are girls / women out there who can not afford sanitation pads, tampons etc aka Period Poverty. As such I would be 100% on board with a move to subsidize feminine hygiene products and make them more easily accessible...

those are just two issues that could easily be resolved but wont because both sides refuse to work with each other.

[–]make_me_a_good_girl 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

HOLY CRAP THANK YOU. For a second there all the negative replies and downvotes made me wonder if I had read the community info wrong and that this somehow was a "chicks can't care about dude stuff, girls are gross" club. Yikes. Thanks for reminding me that, as I was saying about women's rights advocates, there are good ones and virtiolic ones on both sides. This was a relief to read (other than that it is horrific that these are all still issues that first world nations have to deal with).

Some of these problems are very localized, as well. For the circumcision thing, while 75% of American men are, almost 0% of Japanese men are (according to WHO data). So, some countries / cultures are better at some aspects than others.

I see Reddit as a place for people from all races, nations, genders, and sexualities to come together (I know, my naivete is adorable!). Men in the US are right to be angry about circumcision, but I don't know that it is a big concern for men's rights advocates in countries with low rates of it because it seems like a crazy problem for a culture to still have, or ever to have had.

Everyone's situation informs their outrage, which is why I think it is important for women to understand men's rights by listening to men about how they feel violated, similar to how men listen to women, or whites listen to POC. Because by definition you cannot fully understand the toll it takes on someone if you can't ever experience it the way they did. But you can learn and you can have empathy and you can offer support and solidarity.

I'm sorry I caused such uproar, I am here to learn and become a better ally. Thank you for understanding.

[–]Halafax 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Punder_man 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Your naivete is adorable! but don't let it come between you and your ideals.
As I said.. don't take the down votes seriously and be prepared to have your motives / words examined with a fine tooth comb..

Sadly, many within this sub have either been burned by women or they feel that feminism has utterly failed in their goal of "Equality"

And yes, you're right that circumcision is probably more of an issue in countries where it is actively practiced.. but as a group we can come together and unify under the idea that removing bodily autonomy from children regardless of gender is wrong.

I have been abused by women and I really do feel that feminism has dropped the ball in regards to the issues listed in the OP.
That being said I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face and in my book.. any woman who actually cares about the issues facing men is ok in my book!

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[+]babe-gold-11 points 5 years ago [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

IMO Both genders are privileged in their own ways, but if we look at who has the most privileges, it’s males and it has been throughout time. Which is why I think feminism isn’t actually “just talking about women’s issues” but allowing women to be equal to men as feminism is not supposed to be about superiority. some men might believe feminism is grooming women to hate men but it also works a different way too, men (in power) groom men to hate women.

[–]BornAgainSpecial 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]reddut_gang 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Punder_man 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Out of curiosity.. could you provide an example of a right / privilege that men have today that a woman does not?
Because I can provide a small list of rights / privileges that women have that men don't..

Feminists love to say "Equality is not a zero sum game" or "Feminism is about lifting women UP, not tearing men DOWN" but so far as i've seen the majority of what feminism has accomplished has been the opposite, lifting women up while at the same time tearing men down..

Finally.. i'll ask, as a feminist what is your stance on extending the regulations around Female Genital Mutilation to instead have regulations around Genital Mutilations and provide young boys the same protections that are given to girls in regards to not having their genitals mutilated without their consent?

Should be an easy answer.. but why then are so many feminists against granting boys the same protection girls have?

[–]reddut_gang 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]babe-gold0 points 5 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Okay well I usually just go on Reddit at the end of the day. Im not constantly checking on my phone who’s replied. also don’t like to answer a question unless I feel like I can properly debate with the person and I’ll be perfectly honest with you, I haven’t actually done as much reading as I would’ve liked on these particular issues.

[–]reddut_gang 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]babe-gold0 points 5 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

How is it absurd? I just wanted to offer a different perspective. Not saying you have to agree with me, or not trying to change your mind. U think what you think and I can’t change that.

[–]reddut_gang 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]babe-gold0 points 5 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Ok so both genders have privileges , you’ve asked me to give an example, I’m sure you’ve heard this before but I can only speak from my experiences, I find that this is something I’m aware of is the fact that men can generally feel safer walking around wearing any clothing they want and not have to fear for their safety, or sexual harassment/violent crimes happening to them. That’s a privilege I feel like a man would have over me, I’d like that to change if possible, but I know that might be unrealistic in this lifetime so I have to pick my battles.

Feminism shouldn’t be about tearing men down, I think it should be more about eradicating misogynistic ideals. Which obviously not every single guy is misogynistic but these ideals are so ingrained into society that we have to unlearn them because otherwise we grow up thinking it’s okay. I think of it like a spectrum, on one end you have very extreme feminism and on the other end of the spectrum you have very extreme misogyny and I think society should focus on keeping a neutral perspective (the middle) but I know that’s hard to achieve with both ends filtering toxic/harmful/dangerous ideals into society.

And about the circumcision I will have to do more reading on that, in order to form an opinion, but I will say doing anything without a persons consent is wrong full stop.

[–]Punder_man 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I find that this is something I’m aware of is the fact that men can generally feel safer walking around wearing any clothing they want and not have to fear for their safety, or sexual harassment/violent crimes happening to them. That’s a privilege I feel like a man would have over me,

Now, firstly I will acknowledge that you are speaking "from your experiences" but the stats actually show that men are more likely to be attacked when walking home at night.
I can also tell you from my experience of having BEEN attacked when walking around town that I do not feel safe doing so anymore..

But to make this a little more clear cut for you.. Women in the USA have the privilege of being able to vote, get a drivers license and / or financial assistance from the government without having to enlist in the draft and thus be forced to fight in a war if it breaks out.
Men can only get the same thing if they agree to enlist.

I would say that men have the privilege of having their physical pain taken more seriously than women.. If I tell a doctor i'm in pain they are more likely to believe me.. where as if my sister says she's in sever pain they are more likely to think she's being hysterical.

"Feminism shouldn’t be about tearing men down, I think it should be more
about eradicating misogynistic ideals. Which obviously not every single
guy is misogynistic but these ideals are so ingrained into society"

To an extent I agree with you.. but why is the focus always and solely on "Misogyny" or "Patriarchy" or "Masculinity"? you know.. all the things feminists use to point the finger of blame towards men as a whole?
Surely its not ONLY Misogyny or Masculinity that's at fault? Surely there MUST also be Misandry and even some forms of Femininity at fault?

No, its ALWAYS "Toxic Masculinity this" "Oppressive Patriarchy that" "Mansplaining this, Manspreading there, etc"
Can you at least understand that to many men.. feminism seems overly judgemental towards men as a whole?

Title	Feminists claim to help men too- when have you last heard a feminist talk about circumcision or any male issue?
Author	Vista_Seagrape
Upvotes	218
Comments	193
Date	July 19, 2021 3:09 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/onfybz/feminists_claim_to_help_men_too_when_have_you/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminists-claim-to-help-men-too-when-have-you-last.824025 https://theredarchive.com/post/824025

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