Why traditionalism is not the answer to men's problems

BlueOrange22 · 2019-02-17T21:25:58+00:00

Anti-MRAs criticize the MRM for wanting to "maintain gender roles", but the opposite is true. We want to end the gender roles that cause things like:

higher pension ages
conscription
longer prison sentences.

The MRM is general is about undoing the societal gender stereotype that a men's rights movement isn't needed in the first place. The MRM is definitely against the idea of the traditional patriarchy.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2019-02-17T14:11:26+00:00

Agreed.

Feminists and tradcons align on about half of all gender issues.

They don't do this because it benefits men.

BuzzLightGear321 · 2019-02-17T22:41:48+00:00

The answer is freedom and gender equality. Not gender superiority hidden as fake equality

JackFisherBooks · 2019-02-17T15:47:49+00:00

Going back to the way things were in the past is rarely a viable solution.

Imagining a better solution for the future, one that has not been tried before and one better than any that came before it, is an endeavor that people of any gender can get behind. The problem comes when people only imagine a solution that benefits those in their particular group/ideology rather than one that benefits everyone. I've seen both feminists and MRAs put forth visions that would benefit them, but not everyone. And I think that only makes the current level of discourse worse, while also missing the point.

KaitonREEEEE · 2019-02-17T14:50:54+00:00

Both progressives and traditionalists are gynocentric. The only difference is what they want their slaves (otherwise known as men) to do. The last thing I would want to do is work 50+ hour workweeks to support a stay at home leech. There's a video on YouTube by colttaine called: communism for two. Its a great watch for this topic.

perplexedm · 2019-02-17T15:52:36+00:00

in some countries the custom is that a man cannot get married himself until all of his sisters are married first.

Still followed in many places in India. Similarly taking care of parents when they are old, younger brother generally gets the family house, etc.

Copy pasting western based gender laws in India without considering local realities was a huge mistake and it is running havoc within families now.

2019-02-18T04:55:38+00:00

Conservative here, you can have certain aspects of traditionalism without the stuff mentioned. I don't see why it would demand the things you've said. It seems to be a radical Islamic issue.

IDprefertostayanon · 2019-02-17T16:04:11+00:00

You are absolutely right! Also, traditionalism includes gender norms which is by it's nature opressive. And it's much more opressive to men in my opinion.

wazzoz99 · 2019-02-18T05:37:46+00:00

Not defending traditionalism but why do you think that pre Sexual revolution/feminist traditionalism in the west has anything to do with traditionalism in far more culturally backward and impoverished parts of the world? My great grand parents espoused the sort of traditionalism that was dominant in much of continental before the 60s and my great grandfather wasn’t a tyrant or someone with great burden. He treated my great grand mother with respect and they loved each other for decades, but knew their roles. They complemented and supported each other in different ways. And they managed to bring 6 children in the world, 4 of whom became incredibly successful owing to their upbringing.. This is a type of bad straw man to pretend that there’s only a few ways you can be traditional. Heck even the so called evil patriarchs of the time, like Churchil were horrified by how Islam treated women.

Also I find that the problem with alternative family or relationships models, is that they tend to be even more gynocentric than traditionalism and overly dependant on an expanded and unsustainable welfare states which men will ultimately bankroll. And those that are advocating for alternative family and relationships models tend to think social engineering works as predictable, when history has taught us otherwise.

2019-02-18T18:12:32+00:00

Agree it is bad for everyone. Each side has rights and responsibilities. Women had less rights, but also less responsibility. MRA is simply the natural flipside to early wave feminism. Women got male rights, w/o additional male responsibilities, while men did give up additional male responsibilities. Traditionalism makes things '=', but problematic as people shouldn't be restricted by gender roles.

Coachofthet · 2019-02-17T15:35:48+00:00

Its still the lesser of two evils. A third option would be good but where is it? No one seems to support actual equality, people only seem to support total matriarchy and anything that's truly equality is labelled patriarchy, and everything that has even a slight patriarchal slant is considered total evil.

Guantanamo bay would close within days if it was announced that even one female prisoner was being held there, because the public and president trump seem to get off on the idea of torturing men. Currently in Syria, men who joined Isis are facing being shipped to the all male american torture camp, where they will spend the rest of their lives strapped to a table being tortured and raped by women who are employed by president Trump (this has been going on for over 17 years and there are countless news articles covering it), meanwhile the women who joined Isis are being sent home free of charge with their children to be the new wave of single mothers in the matriarchal western world. All of these women joined Isis willingly, many of them were involved in combat roles themselves, but they will be played down as the victim and not held accountable for anything.

A male member of the USA military is not legally allowed to touch a female prisoner or be in the presence of a naked female prisoner, yet the male prisoners of Guantanamo are openly raped and tortured by female guards. They aren't even allowed to die, these men live a life so horrible that they attempt to starve themselves, which results in them being strapped to a chair and force fed through a tube up their nose. Their lives are essentially hell. Why do only men get this torture but not women? There are certainly women who have commited equal or worse crimes than these men. I would be disgusted by Guantanamo bay whether it held male prisoners or male and female prisoners, but the fact that it only holds male prisoners is even worse because it is not just a torture camp, it is a symbol of the matriarchy and female supremecy. It isn't there to keep the public safe, it is there to symbolize female supremacy.

I say either close guantanamo bay, or put a few female terrorists in there too. Either way the camp would close, because the public would not stand for a woman being tortured, because they don't judge by the crime, they judge by the genetals.

Russia is matriarchal, men can get life sentence but women can't, Israel is matriarchal, women get max 5 years for murdering a child (infanticide, law also applies in Canada and Australia), america is matriarchal, it hosts an all male torture camp. Well done people the entire planet is matriarchal now, and if you're this stupid that you've allowed it to happen without even protesting against it, then you deserve it. Are things going to change ever or are we just going to sit here and allow the double standards to continue? Sitting around on the internet seems to achieve nothing we need street protests, we need our own media, we need our own government, because the current media and government is matriarchal. The fact the trump, a male, is president is simply a reverse psychology game, clearly a male is not pulling the strings here, a male is simply there as a mascot to give the illusion of equality. You have no power, you are treated with no respect, you are given no equality. There is a worldwide war on men. This is the truth. The media is blocking this truth, refusing to acknowledge this truth, the government is not only failing to do anything to change this, they are the ones making it happen. You may as well call it the matriarchal world order, it's not a conspiracy, its a fact, its right there in front of your eyes, (the only thing that would convince me of otherwise would be putting female prisoners in Guantanamo bay and allowing male guards to torture them. The fact that this will never happen proves my point) This truth needs to be spread worldwide, the media won't do it, the internet is heavily censored, people need to stop being afraid to talk to their fellow human beings, stop being afraid to criticise the government and realise that your neighbor is far more of a friend to you than your government. Its time to vote for your neighbor as president, instead of a rich matriarchal puppet. Don't endulge in idiol worship, don't even vote on your personality contest fraudulent democracy puppet show any more. Don't vote for a puppet, vote for gender neutral laws. When that fails because neither the puppet on left or right will acknowledge this demand, people will start to become frustrated and demand patriarchy, then we're back to square one and here we go again. The never ending bullshit. This truth needs to get out. If you have these yellow vest protesters in your area, maybe you should go out there and tell them some of this information, because if you want things to change you need to communicate with those around you.

Demonspawn · 2019-02-17T17:55:06+00:00

Living according to my preChristian ancestors' traditions would be just fine with me. And I'm free to apply those principles as I like.

I smell an agenda having nothing to do with "men's rights".

summonblood · 2019-02-17T22:58:54+00:00

I agree, but there is one aspect that I think the tradcons do highlight that I think is valid and that is, a society that views a partnership between men & women as important is much better than a society that believes men and women can be better on their own, independently. Men & women have inherent differences that together complement each other well. A return to family values has a huge benefit to child development. But that’s doesn’t necessarily mean a return to our traditional familial structure.

Of course, where I disagree is a return to traditional patriarchy because it means we miss out on the brilliant minds of ambitious women.

xNOM · 2019-02-17T15:53:07+00:00

This is leftist crap. Stop thinking like a reverse-feminist. It's not all about you and your victimhood. People who live in shitholes have horrible lives. What is your point? Shitholes have traditional societies. Why would a shithole have the same gender roles as Sweden? What does this have to do with men's problems? There is no such thing as gender equality. Only fairness.

The relevant question is not "are traditional societies bad for men." The relevant question is are these societies fair, or not. It's not up to you to pass judgement on their system. It's between men and women to negotiate an adaptive and flexible yet unique solution over hundreds of years as to how things work. This is culture.

Most societies, traditional or modern, are mostly fair as far as gender roles go. If they weren't, they would collapse. Cooperation between men and women is not optional. It is the most important requirement for a functioning society. There can be tribal, class, and race wars. But never a sex war. It by definition cannot work. You cannot separate men and women. Saudi Arabia really tries hard and still fails.

This is also obvious from polling data. In all countries, women and men are roughly equally happy/unhappy. Age is actually a much bigger predictor of happiness than sex.

genkernels · 2019-02-18T00:41:20+00:00

The traditional patriarchy or however you want to call it is terrible for men. I know that most here don't support it, but I have seen at least some who imply they do

I think extreme caution is necessary in deciding that our civilization in the present era and not even 50 years is the only one to have the right idea about social direction. Traditional gender roles are not great for men, but they are most certainly not terrible for men.

I think the truth is that men without responsibility and authority are quite substantially less likely to feel fulfilled. The responsibility to take care of unmarried sisters and his wife can be extreme in traditional gender roles, but they take seriously both responsibility and authority -- and in a way that seems to please male and female natural proclivities concerning mate selection. So even though traditionalism aggrieves male disposibility something fierce, there are substantial gains to be had even in these elements that might make you "horrified".

Make no mistake, I don't want to go back there. There is a better, more egalitarian future that I believe can be obtained and a substantial portion of today's injustices against men exploit traditionalist sentiments for support. But neither should the ideas behind traditionalism be so recklessly discarded or we'll have to learn some important lessons the hard way.

eightgaydiamonds · 2019-02-17T20:51:19+00:00

There are no traditionalists.

Title	Why traditionalism is not the answer to men's problems
Author	UsedToBeRadical
Upvotes	46
Comments	71
Date	February 17, 2019 1:30 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/arkk8k/why_traditionalism_is_not_the_answer_to_mens/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-traditionalism-is-not-the-answer-to-mens.883626 https://theredarchive.com/post/883626

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