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UK: A-level results 2017: Boys beat girls to top grades for first time in 17 years amid tougher exams.

furchfur

August 17, 2017
128 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/08/17/a-level-results-2017-first-rise-top-grades-six-years-despite/
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Title UK: A-level results 2017: Boys beat girls to top grades for first time in 17 years amid tougher exams.
Author

furchfur

Upvotes 128
Comments 27
Date August 17, 2017 10:21 AM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6u91s5/uk_alevel_results_2017_boys_beat_girls_to_top/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/uk-a-level-results-2017-boys-beat-girls-to-top.915717
https://theredarchive.com/post/915717
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Comments

[–]HeForeverBleeds 41 points42 points43 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Clear sexism and misogyny. We must implement campaigns to help improve conditions for female students immediately /s

[–]mwobuddy 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, they did use the phrase "X beat Y". That's inherently violent language, to underscore how performing well as males is oppression and abuse of women /s

No but seriously, most english language is combat-based idioms.

Check out the book Metaphors we live by.

[–]Mode1961 24 points25 points26 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I am assuming that boys got emailed the answers via www.thepatriarchy.com /s

[–]AnonJT 12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

www.thepatriarchy.com

i went there hoping there would be a satirical website, i was disappointed

[–]420weedscopes 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You can make it one though

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The domain name likely will cost couple hundred easy.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

The really good thing about this is that it gives us a concrete data point.

Until now, the decline in boys' educational performance has been treated as a mystery and something no one had any idea how to reverse. If the reforms are really what's helped boys do better, then the schools, politicians and other vested interests can't pretend any more that there is no template for improving boys' performance.

If there's a willingness to actually analyze what's going on and respond in good will, then it's even possible they could look at the 'before' and 'after' and try to design a system that's intelligent enough to work for all learners and give them a chance to demonstrate what they can do.

Sadly, I expect what will actually happen is a well-orchestrated backlash by feminists.

[–]Zepherite 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

The generally accepted wisdom is that girls generally perform better when assessment is ongoing (like the way it was done before the reforms) and boys perform better when it's assessed all in one lump at the end (like the new/reused old system). At first glance this seems to confirm that, although you are absolutely right it needs thoroughly investigating and likely a more longitudinal study to really get to the bottom of it.

There are other problems boys face besides this anyway like the fact that boys are just much more likely to 'drop out' of education and I don't mean as a choice to pursue an apprenticeship either.

The daft thing is, educational theorists have known about all this for ages. It's been brought to government. Nothing happens. I studied about it and wrote a paper about the differences in boys and girls for my degree in education. Incidentally this where I first came across the fact that girls just don't choose STEM subjects and my realisation that the wage gap is nonsense. They've already decided it's not for them earlier than GCSEs. That's another story entirely though.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"The generally accepted wisdom is that girls generally perform better when assessment is ongoing (like the way it was done before the reforms) and boys perform better when it's assessed all in one lump at the end."

That was my first thought. But I'm trying not to jump to conclusions. I'm really hoping that this will prompt some serious reflection on how the system has been failing boys up until now.

I also wonder if part of the shift is because the exams are, reportedly, harder. If boys are less evenly distributed along the ability curve, presumably they will be, proportionally, more of those who are able to continue competing for the top marks once the assessment is more challenging.

And I know it's within the margin of error. But after 17 years of bad news, signs that boys are closing the gap are enough cause to celebrate. I really hope that this will lead people to think of ways we can design an exam system that works for all learning styles.

"I studied about it and wrote a paper about it the differences in boys and girls for my degree in education. Incidentally this where I first came across the fact that girls just don't choose STEM subjects and my realisation that the wage gap is nonsense. They've already decided it's not for them earlier than GCSEs. That's another story entirely though."

That sounds like an interesting story. Just to be devil's advocate, if they are making up their minds so young, then couldn't it really be down to the whole "pink stinks" issue? I've tended to treat it with a high degree of skepticism until now. Was I wrong to do so?

[–]Zepherite 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

The research I was doing was a literary review so I was essentially collating as much research from others as possible to build up a picture.

There is a lot of data that shows it happens. By the beginning of secondary school the diffence in reported opinions about STEM subjects from boys a and girls is already significant. It just gets worse and worse, with fewer girls choosing seperate sciences, computing etc. for GCSE then fewer still taking STEM subjects at A-level until eventually it's a landslide for many STEM subjects at university. Biology related subjects seem to be immune and chemistry related subjects are less affected.

I could not find a huge amount of research specifically about why the gap gets wider and wider in school. It isn't for want of trying by teachers (for UK schools at least) who are encouraged to present STEM subjects as being for everyone.

Possible contributing factors include:

-Teacher's report a lack of confidence and leadership for STEM subjects, particularly in primary school. Approximately 75% of primary teachers are female in the uk so if girls only see female teachers that, for want of a better term, lack enthusiasm for science, they may emulate this themselves. It's a self fulfilling prophecy too as less women get STEM degrees, most teachers are women, so few people with STEM expertise go into primary, so teachers lack confidence in teaching it and they have less in the way of leadership to train them. The problem is a bit less pronounced in secondary, although it is still there, particularly in physics, maths and computing (which have a lack of teachers generally) as well as certain DT subjects (those closely related to engineering essentially).

-There is research that suggests exposure to testosterone during development in the womb and then afterwards during development causes different preferences in boys and girls. It doesn't define any person's maximum potential in a subject - brain 'plasticity' means you can change this preference - but you are working against the tide so to speak.

-Influences outside school, such as the jobs mum, dad and family members do, and even what children see in media likely have an impact. The 'pink stinks' element as it were.

There is suprisingly little research into this phenomenon so I didn't find much that would tell you the magnitude of the effect each of these has. I think it's likely an interaction of all of them - we have inbuilt preferences, which make it more likely for males and females to study particular subjects, which is reflected in society through representation and media, which reinforces those in-built preferences we have.

The question then becomes what can you do about it, or even should you do anything about it? You can change what we see in the media, but you would also likely need a targeted and deliberate attempt to change the preferences of boys and girls from a young age. Should you try and steer people away from the things they want to do?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for such a full answer. I suspect a lot of these subjects — boys' performance in education, women in tech, and so on — boil down to the more or less the same thing: in aggregate, there are differences in the preferences and abilities of men and women. But our institutional, individual, and collective responses to this are inadequate, so we end up creating environments that unnecessarily magnify that effect.

For instance, teachers (particularly women teachers) assume that boys are less academic, and therefore don't teach boys as well or mark them fairly. Similarly, because more men are inherently likely to be interested in tech, tech becomes male dominated and which makes it less attractive to women who would otherwise have liked to work in the sector. As with education and boys, actual bias and discrimination then makes the situation worse. The difference, of course, is that there is massive political pressure to get more women into STEM. There is no corresponding pressure to deal with teacher (and feminist) bias against boys.

Even if both could be dealt with effectively, I doubt you'd see as many boys entered for A-levels as girls (though, in a fair system you'd probably see a greater proportion of boys getting A*) and you probably wouldn't see 50% representation for women in STEM. But you'd see more boys doing better and at school and more women working in tech. And if the systems and environments were as fair as we could make them, at least we'd be reasonably sure that gender disparities were down to choice and natural variation, not unfairness.

Usual caveats apply: just someone 'reckoning' on the Internet. etc.

[–]oggyb 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"the dramatic reversal of fortunes..." er no. Almost within error margins.

[–]Rethgil 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And notice how after boys doing better than girls just ONCE in 17 years we suddenly face a rash of newspaper and news articles from female journalists acting like its instantly the worlds most serious problem right now? Boys have lost out for nearly two decades and they've been silent. Girls do worse ONCE and suddenly they're acting like its Armageddon for women.

[–]TheExplodingKitten 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

And now the media are framing this as a huge 'gender gap', the difference is nothing compared to the gap between girls and boys at GCSEs.

[–]Source_or_gtfo 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And likely the difference between boys and girls at A levels in general (this is only A and A* grades). The highest performing boys do better on PISA aswell :

On the basis of our results, we also have to consider that the overall achievement gap between boys and girls is different for low and high performing children. The gap is large and favors girls at the lower end of performance, but it is non-existent or favors boys at the high end of performance (Fig. 7).

[–]yturijea 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Does it even matter that boys or girl perform better at A-level? so you learned a lot about some "set" data you can retell at some exam.

I always thought that Highschool was a joke. Anyone can get into engineering no matter the grade and often people rise in grades from highschool to university in those fields. (might be because the subject actually makes sense to study?)

Think it has been proven that often average scoring university students often perform better in work life than the top students. Will have to check that through.

I do not see this specific statistic to be of any relevance to equality and from the charts it seems that they are still within some error margin.

[–]MyNameIsSaifa 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

so you learned a lot about some "set" data you can retell at some exam.

When did you go to school? It was certainly my experience in the last 10 years with all the curriculum changes they focused a lot more on applied facts over rote memorisation.

[–]yturijea 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I just finished my degree in software Engineering, so I finished high school 5 years ago. I went to Higher Technical Exam in Odense, Denmark.

[–]ThePigmanAgain 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I predict much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the feminists.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Good.

[–]ZimbaZumba 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

More girls still got top grades. The increase in boys is the % of them getting top grades. There are still far more girls taking A levels in the first place.

[–]Imnotmrabut 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

So yet again we see evidence of dimorphism in education.

The sooner we return to sex segregated education in the UK below age 18 .... The Better.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Did you even read the article? It's a 0.5% difference. This is insignificant and is within error margins.

[–]Imnotmrabut 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes I did read the article and then drew on 20+ years of back data on the issues and the wider science. Sorry if that is just too thorough for you. P¬))

Goves "Tinkering" has only levelled the playing field and not addressed the underlying dimorphism which is best addressed by sex segregated education between ages 11 and 18 in the UK.

[–]MyNameIsSaifa 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You know you're literally the person feminists point to when they want an example of misogyny in the MRM, right?

[–]Imnotmrabut 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh darling - I do love being popular with the underclasses. P¬))

[–]kartu3 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6u8tup/alevel_results_day_2017_students_find_out_grades/

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