My female friends and I were talking recently about a new bill where alleged college rape victims must report it to police before the campus officials can take action. Whats your opinion on this bill?

DavidByron2 · 2016-04-19T15:47:36+00:00

My female friends argue that sometimes girls don't want to go to the police

This is something feminists have endlessly pushed for, even though it makes no sense at all if rape is a real thing and rape is bad. Let's compare with getting shot. Feminists want to pretend they are comparable crimes. If I get shot (and survive) is it ethical for me to say, oh gee you know what I got shot, there's someone going around shooting people, but I don't feeeeeeeel like reporting it to the cops. I'm the victim so you got to respect my --- oh three other people just got shot because I refused to go to the police? Two are dead? Oh but my feeeeeels are so important. I would have been embarrassed and I didn't want to hurt the shooter. And the cops might have asked me embarassing questions what a drag that would have been.

You can't have it both ways. You can't pretend rape is a serious crime and then treat the woman's feelings as more important. Now the reality is that feminists have made rape into a trivial crime, in fact a "zero bad" activity. Because "rape" now includes activities that are zero bad, such as a wife waking up her husband with a blow job on his birthday --- yes that is rape these days --- because it's so trivi8al or not even anything wrong at all, the feelings of the "victim" are in reality often worse than the "crime" itself. But at the same time feminists want this trivial crime to be treated as worse than murder.

You can't have it both ways. This mess is of their making so that they can frame all men as evil for doing trivial or even "zero bad" things. Feminists want to deliberately conflate two completely different "offenses" one a serious violent crime and the other a trivial or even "zero bad" event. They do this so the can wreck the life of any man accused of something that is slightly less serious than hurting a woman's feelings.

So yes make them report it to the police so that they will think twice about the consequences of trying to wreck a man's life with false accusations.

I'm suspicious this law exists btw. A more realistic law with virtually the same consequences would be to say that if a student reports a rape to the college then the college MUST take that matter to the police. After that the police will presumably seek to interview the alleged victim and they can co-operate or refuse as usual. This is the sort of reporting mandate that hospitals have for example. You could argue people will be put off going to the college because of it but I think there's a far better argument that wounded victims will avoid hospital because of their reporting mandate and the consequences there are much more severe.

And why is this law needed? What irresponsible college would not act on information that there's a rapist on the loose by reporting it to the police? The answer is that feminists have deliberately told colleges they must NOT report rape to the police if the "victim" tells them not to.

2016-04-19T15:57:53+00:00

Sometimes women want to be able to accuse a man of rape and it just be believed without being investigated. They want to be able to have the man punished without having to prove they were actually raped. During those times they go the college authorities.

Other times, they talk to the police.

Adanu0 · 2016-04-19T15:39:38+00:00

Much needed godsend. The very idea of colleges and universities being somehow excluded from the law is completely ridiculous and the main reason why I'd never bother with colleges these days.

ukreview · 2016-04-19T15:46:51+00:00

the police are the only ones skilled to deal with accusations of crime. If they are objective (which it seems they usually aren't) then the accused will be protected. Plus, regret-rape is less likely to be reported and thus won't result in the destruction of young men's lives

aokusman · 2016-04-19T15:40:43+00:00

If conviction is not obtained in a court of law the accused can't be branded a rapist.

Rasalom72 · 2016-04-19T16:06:19+00:00

Because, to most women, being "raped" is not that big of a deal.... now actual rape is a big deal.. but most women will NEVER ACTUALLY BE RAPED. I mean actual rape, not whatever it is that some dude did to her that she thinks is rape.

FFXIV_Machinist · 2016-04-19T16:35:37+00:00

Contents of the bill- Going to be editing it for formatting for a bit.

Bolded- important parts.

the TLDR: if any student reports a rape to a school the school must do the following:

Report the rape to the police in lieu of the student within 48 hours
- The student may opt out of this, however this bars the school from taking ANY punitive or retributive actions against the accused, and the accused is still protected from the acuser from smearing them.
Not Bar or suspend the student for more than 15 days unless charges are bought against them.

[Congressional Bills 114th Congress]

[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

[H.R. 3403 Introduced in House (IH)]

114th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 3403

To amend the Higher Education Act of 1965 to protect victims of sexual violence, to improve the adjudication of allegations related to sexual violence, and for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

July 29, 2015

Mr. Salmon (for himself, Mr. Sessions, and Ms. Granger) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Education and the Workforce

A BILL

To amend the Higher Education Act of 1965 to protect victims of sexual violence, to improve the adjudication of allegations related to sexual violence, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the ``Safe Campus Act of 2015''.

SEC. 2. INSTITUTION OF HIGHER EDUCATION REQUIREMENTS FOR PROTECTING VICTIMS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND INVESTIGATING AND ADJUDICATING ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

(a) In General.--Title I of the Higher Education Act of 1965 (20 U.S.C. 1001 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following new part:

PART F--TREATMENT OF ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE

SEC. 161. APPLICATION; DEFINITION.

(a) Application.--The requirements of this part shall apply to any institution of higher education receiving Federal financial assistance under this Act, including financial assistance provided tostudents under title IV, other than a foreign institution of higher education.
(b) Definitions.--In this part, the following definitions shall apply:
- (1) Covered allegation.--The term `covered allegation' means, with respect to an institution of higher education, an allegation that a student of the institution committed an act of sexual violence, or that members of a student organization of the institution or the organization itself committed or were involved in creating a hostile environment resulting in an act of sexual violence.
- (2) Institutional disciplinary proceeding.--The term institutional disciplinary proceeding' means the process by Which an institution of higher education investigates and adjudicates a covered allegation and imposes a sanction with respect to the allegation, in accordance with the institution's own code of conduct or similar internal rules.
- (3) Sexual violence.--The term `sexual violence' means, with respect to an institution of higher education--
  - (A) aggravated sexual abuse under section 2241 of title 18, United States Code;
  - (B) assault resulting in substantial bodily injury under section 113(a)(7) of title 18, United States Code;
  - (C) battery, as defined under the applicable criminal law of the jurisdiction in which the institution is located;
  - (D) rape, as defined under the applicable criminal law of the jurisdiction in which the institution is located;
  - (E) sexual abuse under section 2242 of title 18, United States Code; and
  - (F) sexual assault, as defined under the applicable criminal law of the jurisdiction in which the institution is located.

SEC. 162. EDUCATION, REPORTING, AND STUDENT CARE STRATEGIES FOR PREVENTING SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

(a) Education Programs.--
- (1) In general.--Each institution of higher education which is subject to this part is encouraged to provide education programs designed to address sexual violence that, at a minimum, provide training for reporting covered allegations, intervening as a bystander, and fostering development of healthy relationships.
- (2) Access to programs.--The institution is encouraged--
  - (A) to provide access to the programs required under this subsection for each student during each academic year; and
  - (B) to ensure new students are made aware of the programs and can access them as soon as possible after beginning the course of study at the institution.
(b) Support Services.--Each institution of higher education which is subject to this part shall devote appropriate resources for the care, support, and guidance for students affected by sexual violence.
(c) Role of Volunteer Advisors to Student Organizations.--An institution of higher education which is subject to this part--
- (1) may not designate an adult volunteer advisor to a student organization, or any employee of a student organization who is not also an employee of the institution, as a campus security authority under section 485 or regulations implementing that section; and
- (2) may not deny recognition to a student organization because an advisor or employee described in paragraph (1) does not register or serve as a campus security authority under section 485 or regulations implementing that section.
(d) Training.--Each institution of higher education which is subject to this part shall provide appropriate annual training to campus security personnel, campus disciplinary committee members, and other relevant institutional personnel regarding the requirements of this part, and shall at a minimum require each student who serves as a resident advisor in housing facilities which are owned or supervised by the institution to participate in this training and demonstrate knowledge of the requirements of this section regarding the reporting of allegations to law enforcement agencies and the effects of the confidentiality exception under section 163(a)(2).

Continued in replies

scruffist · 2016-04-19T18:07:14+00:00

This may come as a shock to you, but your female friends are terrible people.

It's too much work and time to go to the police.

You should explore the option of finding friends with better ethics.

Lethn · 2016-04-19T15:40:30+00:00

First off, I just want to point out that MensRights is not a collectivist group, there are lots of people here with different opinions, ideologies and beliefs.

That being said, that's exactly what should be done, I don't give a fuck if these people don't 'want' to go to the police, that's what you do when you report a crime. If they ignore the police and go straight to the media or start spreading rumors then that not only breaches the right to due process but also it means that it puts doubt on their case and encourages false testimony.

I think it's a bit extreme in it's enforcement, but it will likely put a stop to false accusations completely. I think simply stopping colleges from being able to essentially hold what should be illegal private courts against the accused with zero representation and so on should be enough.

As far as I'm concerned, these women who accuse men of rape are highly suspicious the second they don't want to go to the police over this. Yeah, the police could use more training perhaps in areas of sensitivity, but overall they're the ones to go to when dealing with a real crime, not fucking Buzzfeed or Gawker.

They also argued that that it's too much work and time to go to the police because then you have to partake in an investigation, court dates

They have just said that due process is too much work, which says to me that they don't give a fuck if the man is innocent or not.

FFXIV_Machinist · 2016-04-19T15:41:35+00:00

im curious- do you have a link for this? it would be an interesting read.

Personally i err on the side of agreement with the presented action plan. you should without a doubt report rape to the police regardless of any of the excuses you listed above.

I am all for believing a person to be innocent until proven guilty, but if you were truly raped, and you don''t go and do everything in your power to stop them from doing it again, then it will happen again to someone else, and you did nothing to stop it.

rape is a terrible thing, and the person who it happens to has no fault in a true rape situation, but for them to just do nothing about it and let that person go on to rape someone else is probably the most dangerous thing of all. A rapist gives their victim the power to stop it from ever happening again.

Sometimes if a women allegedly goes to a police the police will ask them questions such as "What clothes were you wearing?" And other similar questions that implies that they were asking for it.

To be fair, that usually has NOTHING to do with why they ask that question. the ask that question to build an identification for questioning people.... they may have done that like back in the Sixties, but not today. they need to be able to say "did you see this girl here last night, she was in a _________"

never_said_that · 2016-04-19T16:14:22+00:00

Campuses won't be able to punish the alleged raper and move them from a classroom, suspend or kick them out, or take any action until the victim reports it to the police.

If the campus is in the position of punishing, the campus should report it to the police.

blueoak9 · 2016-04-19T17:16:08+00:00

Rape is a felony crime and the legal system is the right place to deal with, and that includes the police of course. Anything else is uncomfortably close to vigilante action because anything else is going to lack the due processes assurances of a legal proceeding.

The university can look at the police determination on whether there is a basis for further investigation and prosecution to inform their decisions. They may disagree with the police, they may expel a student even when the police decline to prosecute, but then the expelled student can use the police determination in his own lawsuit if he decides to sue and fight the expulsion.

mochacola · 2016-04-19T16:33:22+00:00

The FBI, for purposes of its Uniform Crime Reports, has a hierarchy of crimes — a ranking of violent crimes in order of seriousness. Murder, of course, ranks first. Second is rape. It would never occur to anyone to leave the adjudication of a murder in the hands of a school’s internal judicial process. Why, then, is it not only common, but expected, for them to do so when it comes to sexual assault. The simple fact is that these internal boards were designed to adjudicate charges like plagiarism, not violent felonies. The crime of rape just does not fit the capabilities of such boards.

https://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf

KrisK_lvin · 2016-04-19T17:00:42+00:00

Having police look into such allegations is infinitely better than having schools take responsibility for doing it - something that should never have been allowed in the first place for such a serious criminal charge as sexual assault and rape.

It’s mind boggling that this was ever allowed to be dealt with as an internal procedure rather than as a police matter.

But ...

It would prevent false accusations and I personally believe of you were actually raped, you should press charges, but that's just my opinion.

In many cases, I imagine it probably wouldn’t prevent them - the alleged victims would simply shift from making reports through official college channels to posting videos up on Youtube, or 'naming and shaming’ in a public Blog posts or even make an ‘artwork/protest’ about it where everyone can see (all things that have actually happened and are happening still now).

While there are some women who are devious and vindictive (or just crazy) enough to consciously go to the authorities with a completely fabricated story, I imagine there aren’t all that many of them (thankfully). But far more worrying are women who’ve managed to persuade themselves - or who have been persuaded by others - to believe that what was an awkward or dissatisfying sexual encounter was actually serious case of rape or sexual assault.

This is the kind of woman that gets drunk and hooks-up with someone she wouldn’t normally think of getting together with, or she gets drunk and, throwing all her inhibitions to the four winds, ends up doing something that she’d never dream of doing sober like sleeping with two guys at the same time or … etc. (use your imagination). Let’s call this woman Ms Bambi.

In the day or days following her massive booze/sex session, Ms Bambi is naturally going to feel hungover, ashamed, embarrassed, guilty, paranoid, remorseful … you know, all the things young people - both men and women - regularly experience as a normal consequence of taking on board too much alcohol and getting themselves right royally hammered and, while being colossally, idiotically plastered, have gone on to do something - freely and of their own accord - just a little bit on the nasty or freaky side.

As Ms Bambi is feeling like this, along comes her friend Ms Gender Studies and this ‘friend’ sits Ms Bambi down and explains to her that what she’s feeling - the remorse, the guilt, the shame - have nothing to do with partying too hard and studying too little, but are actually all signs of post-traumatic stress typical of rape victims.

Ms Bambi is shocked, but the idea is in her head now and the more she thinks about it the more true it seems. And it’s kind of perfect for her in several ways: firstly, it enables to shift the whole responsibility for all the shame and guilt she’s been feeling from herself and onto someone else - let’s call him Mr White Male; secondly, it allows her to see herself as a tragic victim - she’s young, she’s middle class and it’s fairly likely that nothing of any real trauma has ever happened in her life (not since her kitten died when she was 11 anyway) and this is the perfect opportunity for a bit of self-indulgent wallowing in self-pity and narcissism.

Ms Gender Studies meanwhile is equally if not more happy - having just leaned last semester that her Campus is rife with an epidemic of rape, she has apparently stumbled across first hand proof that it really does happen and just as frequently as her Women’s Studies professors have been sternly warning her it does. She’s thrilled because this is what activism is all about - it’s fighting Evil wherever and whenever it lurks.

But the crucial point here is that as far as Ms Bambi is concerned, she really is not lying. Sure, she has revised and reformulated her story over and over until she has come to sincerely believe that what she thought had been a drunken hook-up is in fact a rape, but that’s the problem - this is a narrative of what happened, not necessarily what actually happened.

In other words, when she makes her accusation it’s not going to be false as such because she really believes it - even more so now that Ms Gender Studies is constantly “supporting” her by continually convincing her that she really was raped until she can no longer possibly doubt it.

This is why we are told we have to ‘listen and believe’ - because they are stories someone has developed about themselves that they actually believe in earnest (and woe betide anyone who dares raise the question of whether the story might belong to an unreliable narrator).

Mr White Male, however, is now completely fucked - even under this bill. Why? Because this:

In cases where deemed necessary to protect the safety of the alleged victim, schools would be permitted to impose interim measures such as temporary suspensions, no contact orders, adjustments to class schedules, and changes in housing assignments.

This measure is still the decision of the school’s. Even if he receives the lightest temporary measure - i.e. has his schedule re-written rather being suspended - everyone in the Campus will quickly come to know that this guy is probably a sex offender.

That stain on his name will remain regardless of whether or not the police investigation result in an indictment. And exactly how long will that investigation take to resolve? A few weeks? A few months? A year?

If Mr White Male is convicted, then of course he is completely screwed. In many cases, I would consider that a good thing, but getting convicted of a serious charge like rape over a he said/she said drunken hook-up case? I’m not convinced …

Also, if Mr White Male is convicted, then Ms Bambi will go into trauma - because it’s likely that up until this point, she might well have come to believe that she was raped but there would have still been a nagging doubt about the reality of it in the back of her mind - but now that he’s been convicted, it means it did happen to her for real, for actual real, really real. That means the narrative in her mind now has tangible form in the real world, in objective reality out there. And that’s terrifying.

Then again, if White Male isn’t convicted, Ms Bambi is still screwed - because now she will constantly feel as if people think she is a liar and she will even begin to doubt her own sanity. How could something she had come to believe in so much turn out not to be true? Why don’t people believe her? Does she believe herself anymore? Ms Gender Studies believed her - why can’t the police!?!

So who’s the winner in this? Why it’s little Ms Gender Studies of course!

If White Male is convicted, she can claim this as a victory for Feminist activism and congratulate herself on striking a blow against the patriarchy by bringing another filthy rapist to his knees. She can also look on the wreck of Ms Bambi - the wreck she has helped to create - and say 'Look! Look! This is what men do to women in our society!’ quite forgetting her own part in all this.

If White Male isn't convicted, she still wins - because his getting away with it will actually be held up as proof that she lives in a Patriarchal system that oppresses women, in a legal system that routinely abuses them and denies them justice. And again, with Ms Bambi now a wreck, she can point again to how women much women are hated in society.

All in all, little Ms Gender Studies stands to be winner in all this. Ms Bambi and Mr White Male are both completely fucked and disappear into the ether as far as she’s concerned.

Edit Some minor changes made.

Leinadro · 2016-04-19T20:17:29+00:00

Campuses won't be able to punish the alleged raper and move them from a classroom, suspend or kick them out, or take any action until the victim reports it to the police.

That seems reasonable. As long its not requiring a conviction.

The victims may not actually want to get the raper in trouble, but still would like to be away from them.

If they want to take their own action and avoid being around the rapist they are free to do so. However trying to get the school to get rid of the rapist affects the rapist and shouldnt be done without some solid evidence. She shouldnt be able to make an anonymous report to the school and get the guy kicked off campus.

Sometimes if a women allegedly goes to a police the police will ask them questions such as "What clothes were you wearing?" And other similar questions that implies that they were asking for it.

Are they asking to imply they askes for it or asking to anticipate the accused trying to make that implication?

For example if she was wearing red heels that might be a link to other rapes where the victim also wore res heels and come to find out part of the rapist's MO is to target women in red heels. But I guess profiling is victim blaming now.

Also asking for details isnt victim blaming.

Now of course such victim blaming does happen and its wrong, I just don't think we should try to declare that asking certain questions isnt victim blaming. Id be more concerned with how they respond to the answer.

They also argued that that it's too much work and time to go to the police because then you have to partake in an investigation, court dates, etc. Lastly, they argued that for whatever reason, a vast majority of rapes go unreported, and the victims just want help but no police involved.

While that may be true if they wanr action taken against their rapist work has to be done to deal with them.

Rethgil · 2016-04-19T22:06:01+00:00

How is this even debatable?! To not report to cops first risks hurting the victims court case. To not do that risks convicting the wrong person, or an innocent person. Its not only common sense but morally right. Shows just how crazy and power crazed campus authorities and campuses in general have become that this is even debated.

McFeely_Smackup · 2016-04-20T02:47:25+00:00

My female friends argue that sometimes girls don't want to go to the police. The victims may not actually want to get the raper in trouble, but still would like to be away from them.

You don't get it both ways, that's the real world. Let's not pretend that having a person expelled from school and transcript stamped "rapist" isn't "getting them in trouble".

Sometimes if a women allegedly goes to a police the police will ask them questions such as "What clothes were you wearing?" And other similar questions that implies that they were asking for it.

that's what comes from watching Lifetime Network movies...in the real world sex crimes are right up at the top of the priority list. Report your house broken into while you were at work, and you'll be lucky to get a patrol car to show up...report a rape, and The Machine kicks into high gear.

They also argued that that it's too much work and time to go to the police because then you have to partake in an investigation, court dates, etc.

so yeah...it'd be just way more convenient if we could sidestep that whole "due process" thing, huh? it's just so much bother...

nice.

Legsclosedpleaselady · 2016-04-19T16:08:02+00:00

Does The Word ‘Rape’ Really Carry Any Impact Anymore?

Rape: the crime of forcing someone to have sex by using violence. MAINLY JOURNALISM: the harm or destruction caused by using a place, especially an area of land, in an unsuitable way.

a plant with bright yellow flowers that is used for feeding animals or making oil

You rape the soil. You rape conquests of war. You rape women. You sew rape. You snog-rape. You rape with your eyes. You date rape. The press rape you. Simulated rape-fucks. S&M porn stars accusing each other of rape. You Frape.

Does ‘rape’ really have the impact it used to have?

Rape is a word that women use a lot. Men don’t use the word as much outside of jocular jest, extreme insult and agriculture/logging. When women tend to use the word rape, it seldom refers to the definition of rape. Few women know what rape actually feels like. Yet women repeatedly refer to any annoyance or intrusion in their life as the feeling of being raped.

Charlize Theron reported feeling raped by the press. This was surprising, since having played the role of a rape victim in a film and won an Oscar for the role, Charlize still did not comprehend the difference between an actual violent sexual assault and a story in the press about her.

Maria Schneider felt ‘a little raped’ both by Marlon Brando and by Italian director Bertolucci after being convinced to perform a scene in the The Last Tango In Paris. How can a woman ever feel ‘a little raped’ by two men over the manner in which she was asked to perform her job?

A drunk rape activist gets into the shower with a stranger in South Africa and is shocked that sex occurs. And this person is supposed to be giving advice to rape victims and helping to put a stop to rape permanently? Would you listen to her? Did she not consider her own personal safety before getting into a shower with someone who she knew wanted sex with her? The man is obviously criminally responsible for his actions, but it is definitely the stupid woman’s fault for having gotten herself in the situation from the start.

Rebecca Traister says consensual sex can still be bad if the element of initiation and role control are taken by the male. In other words, for Rebecca, only sex initiated by and controlled by the female should be considered legal consensual sex.

Emma Watson voluntarily appeared in a film where the men were joking about raping her. It’s incredulous that a large pay packet managed to sway her opinion and appear in such a film being a UN ambassador for women.

Another woman writes after a mutual anger fuck while arguing with her partner. He ejaculates in her without her consent and claims to have been ‘sort-of-raped.’ she states ‘Now that I’ve taken a small sip at the cup of rape, I understand just how terrible it is to have another human being rob me of agency, and mark my body as their domain. It has taught me to look beyond troubled legal definitions of “rape” and instead focus on how victims feel. (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/05/my-boyfriend-sort-of-raped-me-and-i-didnt-even-break-up-with-him)

It is for these reasons that it is important that we do not focus on how the victims of rape feel. One must assume that any person being a victim of rape will feel pretty much the same. Is it right the redefine the meaning of an established word because it doesn’t feel inclusive enough? Are words not supposed to convey specific ideas and not general moods? Does the person in question who wants to use the word ‘rape’ really appreciate the severity that the word ‘Rape’ is supposed to carry?

Recently a UK radio presenter was taken to court over a historic ‘Snog-rape’ perpetration on a 15 year old girl who asked for a kiss. Her main issue was not the kiss, but that once the kiss was completed, the famous dj walked away from her without another though. She testified in court that she felt bad about herself as if she had done something wrong.

A man should never have to be accused of sexual assault because a woman was not left emotionally fulfilled after a sexual encounter. As the judge in this case concluded ‘I don’t doubt the reliability of the witnesses claims. I just don’t think an actual crime was committed.’

As of late, I’ve taken to asking men I encounter through work and socially what their reaction to rape is. I have not encountered any men who have strong feeling toward rape. It appears that women crying rape or sexual assault over the smallest of indiscretions has left it’s mark on the male psyche.

When figures such as 850,000 reports to the police of sexual assault with regards to an adult male population in the UK of 25,000,000 over the age of 16, we can see why most males today don’t really have much reaction to the word ‘rape’. When a word is used too often, it loses its meaning and it’s impact. When women accuse all men of being sexual abusers, males assume that sexual abuse is the norm.

Now that ‘rape’ becomes the norm and even gay man have been unjustly accused of some type of sexual assault against a woman, no wonder men no longer react with revulsion at the term. When women can accuse men of rape and ruin their careers without even reporting the alleged crime to the police and universities are expected to handle cases of sexual assault and ban accused males from studies without a charge being laid by police, we approach dangerous territory.

‘Rape’ has lost its impact. This is what happens when we cry wolf.

blueoak9 · 2016-04-19T16:17:18+00:00

Is it possible for the accused to report the alleged rape to the police and have them investigate?

TBFProgrammer · 2016-04-19T16:41:25+00:00

Justice is a very powerful and thus very dangerous tool that, to some degree, is necessary for society to exist. It must be carefully constrained, however, or it will do far more harm than good. For this reason, justice systems are heavily regulated and limited in what powers they have available to them. Further, we do not permit the prosecution of anything falling under the purview of the justice system to be carried out by any other actor, which we call vigilantism.

Colleges shouldn't be prosecuting rape at all, and should only act on it in accordance with facts determined by the justice system. A judge is completely capable of ordering a suspension to protect the alleged victim during the course of the investigation, and a College is not harmed by waiting to expel a student until a conviction is secured.

The Safe Campus Act does not, in my opinion, go far enough. It is, however, an important step towards curtailing the extra-judicial powers the department of education has attempted to usurp.

For those who say the Justice system does not provide sufficient protection to victims and alleged victims, there are legitimate channels through which you can advance reform efforts. The importance of these channels is that they allow the entirety of society to weigh in. If society decides you are wrong, you'll just have to live with that.

civilsaint · 2016-04-19T16:43:30+00:00

Absolutely. Colleges are institutions for learning, not law enforcement.

Mik3ze · 2016-04-19T19:28:40+00:00

The difference between going to the police and going to the University administration is that the police actually have to prove that the accused party committed the crime for him to be punished. The University can dole out punishment without definitive proof.

Accused people deserve to be given the presumption of innocence.

They also argued that that it's too much work and time to go to the police because then you have to partake in an investigation.

Wow. So they think that someone should be punished without an investigation?

hackableyou · 2016-04-19T19:34:18+00:00

I would be in support of it as preferable to the current environment. But I only see it as a band aid. College campuses should not be in the business of determining guilt. They should only have a policy of EXPELLING STUDENTS WHO ARE CONVICTED OF RAPE IN A COURT OF LAW.

omegaphallic · 2016-04-19T22:03:45+00:00

I support it.

cld8 · 2016-04-20T03:06:21+00:00

I believe that this bill is a good idea for the simple reason that university officials are simply not equipped to deal with serious crime. University officials are former professors, researchers, deans, and so on. They may be able to deal with things like cheating on exams and plagiarizing papers, but they have no law enforcement or legal training and they are not prepared to deal with this.

That is exactly why there are complaints from both sides. Sometimes victims complain that they aren't taken seriously or given proper respect. Sometimes the accused complain that they aren't given due process and officials expel them from campus with only minimal, and unreliable, evidence. The police, prosecutors and judges are trained to deal with these things, and they are the ones that should be doing so.

Black_caped_man · 2016-04-20T08:40:19+00:00

I think it's funny that most people who argue we believe the victim does so from the perspective of punishing the named guilty party and not by helping the victim recover.

In the end I also hear very little talking about the nature of rape as a crime. Why is raping someone supposedly worse than punching someone in the face for example? What about the fact that the only difference between something pleasurable and desirable is the prior and ongoing consent of the female party?

Nobody seems able to agree on a consensus to what actually constitutes rape or even sexual abuse or assault. That's why the regressives can alter the definitions so freely.

I either think that the women themselves should be required to report to the police or the campus should be required to do the reporting to police. But it is a crime and whether or not it was committed is for the police to determine since that is their profession.

TheDude41 · 2016-04-20T12:02:29+00:00

Campus investigators do not have the powers of discovery that would allow them to get to the bottom of such cases.

I think if someone forgoes filing an actual criminal complaint, and still complains to campus investigators, then the burden of proof for their campus claim should be markedly elevated, under the assumption that much of the evidence, potentially exonerating, would not be available.

Campus investigators should also be obligated to make adverse inferences in case complainants withhold evidence or fail to to be completely transparent.

My female friends and I were talking recently about a new bill where alleged college rape victims must report it to police before the campus officials can take action. Whats your opinion on this bill?

Comments

[Congressional Bills 114th Congress]

[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

[H.R. 3403 Introduced in House (IH)]

114th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 3403

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

July 29, 2015

A BILL

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

SEC. 2. INSTITUTION OF HIGHER EDUCATION REQUIREMENTS FOR PROTECTING VICTIMS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND INVESTIGATING AND ADJUDICATING ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

PART F--TREATMENT OF ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE

SEC. 161. APPLICATION; DEFINITION.

SEC. 162. EDUCATION, REPORTING, AND STUDENT CARE STRATEGIES FOR PREVENTING SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

SEC. 163. ROLE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES IN INVESTIGATION OF ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

SEC. 164. DUE PROCESS REQUIREMENTS FOR INSTITUTIONAL DISCIPLINARY PROCEEDINGS.

SEC. 165. PRESERVATION OF SINGLE-SEX EXEMPTION FOR STUDENT ORGANIZATIONS.