Weigh in on a discussion between my girlfriend and I regarding feminism.

guywithaccount · 2014-11-23T19:32:49+00:00

Is there a better way to make this case?

Let's suppose for a minute that I say "yes". You had a valid point, you made it well, she's wrong. What difference would it make?

You're dealing with someone who believes something not supported by evidence: that there is a grand invisible conspiracy to oppress women for the benefit of men, and that as a result men and women are unequal, and equality can only be achieved by giving women more and more special privileges and taking power and freedom away from men. All the logic in the world isn't going to change her mind because she isn't using logic.

I mean, Christ, this is a woman who says that feminism is about equality but egalitarians are sexist! She's living in her own world with its own rules and definitions.

Now maybe, if you hit her over the head with logic often enough, she'll have to accept it. But I think what's more likely to happen is that she'll just grow to resent your difference of perspective.

There's a better way to not make this case: spend the time you waste arguing with your girlfriend about feminism doing literally anything else. If you haven't been together too long, maybe you could use that time to find a new girlfriend who doesn't call you an ignorant sexist and treat you with faux outrage.

cbaronaitis · 2014-11-23T20:23:49+00:00

Well, let's look at the dictionary definition of feminism, because no one seems to know what it is:

the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Political, social, and economic equality are all equalities of outcome, "equal rights" is not mentioned as an issue, rather, rights are the tool being used to achieve equality of outcomes; as such, feminism is about legislation to ensure equal results, though this can be complicated by ideological beliefs such as "men can't be raped".

She wants social equality concerning cat calling, and, I expect, feels legislation is the way to go about it. That's feminism by the book, literally.

Conversely, egalitarian is defined as:

of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

Actual equality, not one sided advocacy, and without attempts to manipulate outcome. It would be nice if the definition included "equal responsibility", but you can't have everything.

So, do you have a valid point? Yes, you just need to remember that when feminists say "equal rights" they generally mean "equal results", rights are simply the vehicle; also, notice how this influences how they see egalitarians who don't think equality of outcome is actual equality.

alonsaywego · 2014-11-23T19:23:33+00:00

Dude, that was a great breakdown of definitions. Solid argument, and yes, I do think you made a valid point.

AdmiralKuznetsov · 2014-11-23T20:07:32+00:00

That is literally my exact debate strategy and I think you made a legitimate point.

Also, I think you should post this in /r/Feminism just to see what happens.

eletheros · 2014-11-23T19:25:50+00:00

Early in my relationship [...] saying all the people she knew who called themselves egalitarians seemed to be sexist.

Early in the relationship you find out she's a twat, why do you continue investing in the relationship?

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2014-11-24T01:30:56+00:00

You can make a much stronger case, but you will do this by reframing the argument. You can't make a better case, any case at all with the framework she set up.

Feminism means everything and nothing and all things and nothing and puppy dogs and unicorns. Trying to define what is or isn't "feminism" is futile. To determine if and issue is a feminist issue or not is futile. Trying to do anything other than vagina worship is futile if there is a feminist framing.

Now, if you are to have a discussion/argument over catcalling, if the word feminism is even part of it, you've already lost. Frame the issue as one of gender egalitarianism. Yes women are cat called and yes men do the cat calling. This situation involves both women AND men. If we are to understand the issue we need to look at both the woman's perspective AND the man's perspective. We can't truly understand an issue that involves both men and women by looking at the woman's perspective and only the woman's perspective.

There are most decidedly matters of inequality at play. We place the obligation to initiate on men. Men of low utility value and low social class need to be more aggressive to even be noticed at all. This being aggressive in pursuing romance with women can make women uncomfortable.

There is inequality at play, the expectation that women don't initiate is most decidedly inequality. The solution to the inequality isn't for women to run to their fainting couches when a man talks to them, but for women to take the risks of initiating contact for romance. If these men of low utility value and low social class can successfully enter reasonable relationships with out cat calling, they will. If the women that find these men acceptable dating material approach them for dates, they will have no cause to approach women.

Simply put by allowing a feminist framework for the argument it is a question of "Women's Rights". By creating an egalitarian framework the issue becomes "The expectations we place on both women AND men".

daelyte · 2014-11-24T02:51:45+00:00

You're missing the silent majority of hidden male victims under the vocal minority of visible ones.

I did concede that catcalling was an issue, and that it primarily affected women.

I don't think so. Plenty of women do harass men they find attractive, and rarely face any repercussions for it.

Four out of five men are sexually harassed by women at work - but are too afraid to complain to their employers.

A study by the law firm Peninsula found 85 per cent of employers admit they take complaints of sexual harassment from male employees less seriously.

Two-thirds of the 2,300 men questioned also said sexual banter was inappropriate at work.

http://www.ifeminists.net/e107_plugins/enews/enews.php?item.10442

If feminism is about women's issues, catcalling is a feminist issue, but then not one that I need to be concerned about.

Men don't complain enough, aren't believed (or get laughed at) when they do, and aren't included in most studies and official statistics.

Any women's issue is likely men's issue as well, it's just hidden and needs to be dug up so male victims can be helped.

NateExMachina · 2014-11-24T11:52:59+00:00

Before you embark on changing your girlfriend's mind, start asking yourself some serious questions.

Is she an honest person?
Is she vengeful?
Does she admit when she's wrong?
Does she take responsibility for her actions?
Does she ever act like a victim?
Does she ever tell you to man up?
Does she have empathy?

I would also recommend Stefan Molyneux's book Real-Time Relationships.

Good luck, friend.

miroku000 · 2014-11-24T17:02:38+00:00

The reason feminists might think catcalling is a feminist issue is that they see it in the context of a society that they think is hostile to women. Some feminists think that men catcall women because they want all women to feel unsafe in public and other such nonsense. Maybe you have to be more specific about what catcalling means. Does "good morning" count? If people were frequently yelling "how dare you walk down the street without a male escort", then that might be a legitimate feminist issue. Usually feminists focus on the most outrageous things ever said when they talk about this, but then fall back to the innocuous things guys said when they count the frequency. So 999 " good mornings" and 1 "Hey baby, suck my cock" becomes a thousand incidents of street harassment. If you actually believed that there were 1000 incidents of "suck my cock" being said, you might think it rised to the level of a problem feminism should look at. Especially if men only experienced 1000 good mornings.

Stalgrim · 2014-11-23T20:16:19+00:00

Don't date a fucking feminist, you're setting yourself up for failure and that failure will come down on you like a mountain because feminists know how much they can fuck up a mans life.

plumranger · 2014-11-23T20:44:16+00:00

I explained it to a female acquaintance as such. Feminists are declaring that catcalling is sexual harassment, because someone is verbally addressing them (when they don't want to be addressed) in a sexual nature, even if it is not a repeated act. By that definition, regular harassment is anyone that that talks to you when you don't want to be talked to, regardless of whether or not it's repeated. So in that case, I will concede that catcalling is sexual harassment, only if we get to classify a wife or girlfriend telling boring stories to their man as harassment.

Sigbi · 2014-11-24T03:17:44+00:00

you used direct logic and walked her through the evidence she was incorrect and all she did was scoff at you and your ideals.... just dump her now and save yourself the pain.

2014-11-24T02:57:46+00:00

You could replace everything you said with religious values instead and it would be the same exact scenario. You can't tell a religious person there is no god and expect them to listen and you can't tell a feminism there is no oppression and expect them to listen.

Both are faith-based approaches to life and the fact that you're trying to logically put A and B together just means you haven't spent nearly enough time around people who rely on faith to live.

There is nothing you can do so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

Title	Weigh in on a discussion between my girlfriend and I regarding feminism.
Author	cbaronaitis
Upvotes	18
Comments	36
Date	November 23, 2014 6:40 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2n6o5p/weigh_in_on_a_discussion_between_my_girlfriend/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/weigh-in-on-a-discussion-between-my-girlfriend-and.993009 https://theredarchive.com/post/993009

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