Am I in the wrong here?

OddSeraph · 2024-06-18T21:05:54+00:00

tl;dr -

We see the reverse.

Present_League9106 · 2024-06-18T21:41:11+00:00

You sound like you're writing in good faith, but your bias is clearly showing. Yes, this sub (and MensRights) isn't perfect, but it doesn't take a lot of looking to find problems with AskFeminists. It sounds like you are keen to apologize for their misgivings and keen to criticize the misgivings expressed here. You find what you expect to find. Don't worry, your experience is pretty standard, which is one thing that we try to point out here. Hope that clears some things up for you.

SpicyMarshmellow · 2024-06-18T22:23:22+00:00

This was early in my turn, before I started keeping screenshots or links of stuff like this. But I have literally seen the statement "When men rape women it's because of toxic masculinity. When women rape men it's because of internalized misogyny." and get upvotes with no one challenging them.

But if you want an easy window into their nature, search that sub for their thoughts on the Depp v Heard trial. It's disgusting. Especially if you watch how the discussion around that case has evolved over time. Oh, except when I look back through now, I see zombie threads with like half the posts deleted. I can't find many of the absolutely disgusting things that I know were said, because I guess there came a point where either the mods or the people who made those posts knew they would no longer be socially acceptable.

I spent my mid-teens to my mid-thirties considering myself a feminist, and seeing issues as framed by them. But I also spent my 20's and 30's trapped in an abusive relationship and witnessing or learning about almost every man I knew being abused by women in their lives. I was in the middle of escaping my situation during the peak of MeToo, and allowing myself to finally confront what I'd lived through didn't mix well with the things everyone around me was saying that were incredibly callous to people like me, often said by people I thought were friends. I started exposing myself to more feminist spaces to prevent myself from being swayed against the movement by my anecdotal experiences with individuals, and AskFeminists was one of those spaces. It backfired massively. I was just continually more and more disgusted by the twisted ways they insisted on denying or marginalizing my existence, or even outright stating that collateral damage of men is acceptable for women's safety - that our lives matter less than theirs. When I read the way they talk about things now, it feels I'm in a bedroom with my ex again staring stone-faced through her as I endure being berated and told that the way she treats me is my fault. The nature and character of the arguments they make are exactly the same. And as I hung out here instead, I started to learn about how feminism's influence on culture and law over the past 60 years bears a great deal of direct responsibility for putting me through much of what I went through.

I can show you the exact moment I was 100% done and turned my back on them and feminism for good. My comment in this thread right here - https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/v2pxxn/comment/iau4qyy/

I called myself a feminist from my mid-teens to my mid-thirties (now 39/male), and am radically left in basically every other respect (anti-war, anti-authoritarian, support LGBT, tried to raise awareness of racist police violence since the Oscar Grant shooting, closest label that probably works for me is anarcho-communist). I started browsing here when I was near the end of a 20 year abusive relationship, reflecting on my experiences and what they meant for my feminist beliefs. Most of the people and social spaces I exposed myself to were feminist, and as I began to finally allow myself to process my experiences, I became really unnerved by the shit I found everyone around me saying about abuse. Sometimes things that were extremely callous to me personally, from people who knew about my situation and should have known I would be bothered by their statements, who would dogpile me if I spoke up about my discomfort. So I started browsing here and some other places to get a broader perspective from places specifically angled towards being representative of and teaching about feminism. To try and reassure myself that the movement as a whole and the beliefs commonly held by its communities were not like that, and that I shouldn't see the people I was around as representative.

It didn't help. I no longer call myself a feminist, and this sub definitely contributed to that decision. The above post by Aket-ten does a decent job beginning to explain why. I just want the people here to know that people like me, men with actual experience as victims of abuse, see discussions like these. Not only is the double-standard of narratives (ex. one-directional application of "perfect victim" narrative) and threshold of evidence required to believe a male vs female victim glaringly obvious. But I cannot imagine a take that is more callous towards male victims than to respond to a female abuser getting ousted with hand-wringing about the consequences for female victims. As if the consequences for male victims don't also matter. As if a man losing a high-profile case where there is audio of the woman berating him and calling him a coward for locking himself in the bathroom to avoid physical altercation wouldn't have a monumental chilling effect on male victim's willingness to come forward. We see your attitudes towards a case like this. We see how you constantly claim in the vacuum of theory that you recognize male victims exist too and that your movement is about helping them too, but when reality tests those claims, you subject male victims to the exact same treatment you complain female victims are subjected to. And then when you tell us that we as male victims are not believed because of patriarchy, it feels like a such a load of gaslighting. It feels exactly like talking with my abusive ex.

If this post even survives moderation, I just want to implore everyone here to listen to a male victim's perspective on being a male victim as you would with a female victim. One who was once on your side. And think about whether you care more about the integrity and success of your movement, or about building rhetorical fortresses.

That said, there is a lot of disgusting statements and behaviors and actual misogyny in MRA/manosphere spaces too. This sub is the only place I really feel comfortable. But I think feminist spaces are usually worse. They more consistently say things that are hateful or callous, but they dress it up in deceitful language or justifications leaning on collective guilt and gender essentialism.

throwaway1231697 · 2024-06-18T22:18:47+00:00

Firstly, these posts do exist, such as this one talking about removing all men from their lives. You can sort posts by controversial.

You’ll also notice that subreddits like AskFeminists are very heavily-policed. Try scrolling to the bottom of the posts there and see how many comments are removed. Now go to r/MensRights or related subs and see how many comments are removed.

It’s easy to be cordial in an echo chamber, since everyone is agreeing with you, and any disagreement is removed. Have you ever seen Andrew Tate talk on his podcasts? He never loses his cool or goes on an angry rant. Doesn’t mean whatever he’s saying is right.

Trying going to r/PurplePillDebate where many of the same redditors from feminist subs are, and see how they react when people actually disagree with them. Then they get a lot less cordial.

In short, angry and rational people are everywhere, doesn’t matter if you’re a man or woman, or whatever viewpoint you support.

VexerVexed · 2024-06-19T00:15:43+00:00

https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1d3vjnk/have_you_ever_met_any_women_who_was_sympathetic/l6d886b/

As I say in the linked comment; the issue with the men that post/are highlighted in /r/askfeminists; is that "The worst thing about that community as far as the men who make the threads; is that often they're rhetorically in the gutter and ask questions in good-faith; that just so-happen to be dumb.

But those are also the only comments they let through."

When you see a subreddit like mensrights what you see is the result of actively stamping out pro-male ideas/feminist critiques that stray away from orthodoxy; not that every male banned or whom feels isolated in progressive spaces runs to the right, but that they aren't right wing so they'll refuse to post in such a space but can't express themselves in communties like /r/askfeminists; so they end up depressed, angry, and disparate.

Your emotional bias and lack of awareness of men's issues wholly simply leads you to see their communication as more informative than it actually is.

It's a self-jerk of a community; where instead of asking men why they feel a certain way or seeking out academic challenges of their beliefs, they ask things like "why do men feel a certain way about feminists-" to get the strawman they already believe fed back to them.

Puzzleheaded_Pea_889 · 2024-06-19T21:49:40+00:00

Thank you for your question, it's clear that you're asking in good faith. I'd argue that most of the "strawman arguments" are not actually strawmen at all, but accurate descriptions of the true beliefs of many feminists which they obfuscate with motte-and-bailey tactics, equivocation, vague slogans, double standards, and internally inconsistent logic. For example, a feminist may deny thinking that domestic abuse against men is okay, but upon being presented with a case of domestic abuse against a man they will either deny it by demanding a higher burden of proof than they would ask of a female victim (eg the Depp vs Heard trial), or alternatively use some unfalsifiably vague notion of "power imbalance" to insist certain acts don't count as abuse at all when they're against a man (eg arguing that women ghosting their male partners is necessary for women's safety). Another common "straw man" I see is the definition of the term "toxic masculinity". Feminists usually define it as something reasonable (eg the belief that men shouldn't show feelings), yet in practice they use the term "toxic masculinity" to describe anyone who criticizes feminism or upholds traditional notions of masculinity related to strength or self-reliance. For example, Jordan Peterson very unambiguously advocates that men be open and in touch with their feelings, yet still gets described as upholding "toxic masculinity" because he also criticizes feminism. In other words, what feminists say they believe is inconsistent with what they actually do in practice.

I personally thought most of these were "straw men" as well and self-identified as a feminist for years. It took years of reading feminist writings and subreddits before the double standards, motte-and-baileys and equivocations became evident, so if you haven't read much of r/AskFeminists then yes, I can definitely see why you'd think the MRA's are engaging in straw arguments.

Mind you, I'm not fond of most MRA subreddits either (hence why I come here). Nevertheless, it's easy to be civil when you're in an echo chamber. Stigmatizing an ideology will inherently bias its adherents towards the sort of aggressive behavior you complain about. If it's socially unacceptable to voice negative opinions of feminism, then only the the more confrontational and anti-social members of society will do so. Everyone else would prefer to stay quiet and avoid the arguments. Furthermore, kicking MRA's off all the other subreddits inevitably drives them into the few subreddits where they're accepted, resulting in an echo chamber.

_-_010_-_ · 2024-06-19T23:33:44+00:00

Step out of the culture war for a moment with me. What do you believe in? What should we change to make society a better place for everyone?

You're in the wrong because in your post you make no mention of any of that. If you pick a side based on how the way people talk makes you feel, then you're picking the wrong side either way. Everything you say can be turned around to argue why men's rights rule, feminists drool. You're just dismissing men because you don't understand where they're coming from, don't see how they're genuine and you don't like their tone. And you use that to justify horrible behavior in retaliation. You're no better than the men you think so poorly of.

It's possible to be completely calm discussing if another group of people deserves human rights or if they should be classified as subhuman. If you decide where you stand based on how "mature" and calm people are, then you're no better than some twat watching Ben Shapiro bash feminists or whatever he does exactly. If any discussion was possible, I'd rather work with the most angry, blue-haired, man-hating, radical feminist than with someone who believes in nothing.

I haven't checked r/AskFeminists in at least a year and I will not. It would take me back to some dark times in my life and bring up resentments that would prevent me from fairly assessing if they changed. And it matters not. If you want to be their shining knight and prove to them what a good feminist you are, go for it! Just don't come here pretending that feminism helps men. This place exists to actually help men with issues that go beyond wanting to be more feminine. It does sound like you made some of the experiences that brings men here, but it's up to you if you want to stay here or not.

Professional-You2968 · 2024-06-19T05:30:21+00:00

What you call strawmen are just arguments showing feminists hypocrisy, I have bm ever seen one answer to them in a proper manner. Because they can't,their whole argument would crumble.

Don't be fooled, this one is another concern troll, posing the question but not a single answer.

Bertje87 · 2024-06-19T11:00:30+00:00

I think the main problem here is the difference in perception, the posts that you may find reasonable, i probably would find abhorrent, victimhood status bullshit, and whining

PrettyText · 2024-06-19T14:38:56+00:00

Men are getting systemically discriminated against, women aren't. So yes, I can imagine that there are more angry / upset men than there are women.

And in my mind, men facing systemic discrimination is more important than some individual men being jerks.

It's not the exact same situation of course, but imagine if reddit existed during a time when courts and police openly discriminated against black people, when companies openly said they preferentially hire white people, etc.

I imagine if during that time you go to a pro-black people subreddit, they're more upset and angry than if you go to the pro-white-people subreddit. Does that prove that black people are worse than white people? Not it doesn't, it proves that they're facing systemic discrimination and they're understandably angry about that.

Content_Lychee_2632 · 2024-06-18T23:42:26+00:00

You’ve never seen genuine good faith debate. Have you checked this sub at all before posting?

gratis_eekhoorn · 2024-06-20T07:54:56+00:00

From the post of OP themselves posted in the said sub:

Comment: "Men have been practicing separatism since the dawn of humanity, but now that a lot more women want to separate from them suddenly it's a problem" 130 upvotes

Reply: "It's not a problem women separate but a perception that women separate while also entering the spaces men used to have reversed. This is a view held by many men. There are quite a lot of organizations that used to be for men that are now co-ed. People did offer lots of examples of male only spaces that still exist" 18 downvotes

Idk but this shows an exact opposite of a picture the OP is trying to argue if you ask me, that reply is actually agreeing with people there (look at the last sentence) but they still downvoted it while giving over a hundred upvotes to a comment that used generalizing language against men, a sort og comment that would be removed here.

Richardsnotmyname · 2024-06-19T11:53:07+00:00

Polite or rational aren’t mutually exclusive from hateful and harmful.

For instance, many people can completely justify their bias in a completely rational way in which you describe. That doesn’t make their ideas any better.

I have to give you some credit, I don’t think people here browse r|feminism much and if they did they would find that the space isn’t as bad as it is portrayed.

Still, many of the ideas presented look rational but are harmful to men. It is possible to minimize the experience of male victims, advocate for discriminatory policies and promote bias in a completely scientific way, and I think that is what a lot of people here are worried about.

HedgeRunner · 2024-06-19T01:56:57+00:00

With all respect dude, I think you’re just brainwashed. A few things to consider, in no particular order: - a 3/10 women can get 100 likes in a day in NYC. Women have significant advantage in dating. But almost no women forums talk about this at all. Every person goes “ugh dating apps so bad” - Go to TikTok and type “dating woes”. Observe how many women are complaining vs men. - At work there often groups like Women in X, but absolutely never social groups that are Men in X. -There are endless “Are we dating the same guy” FB groups that it’s making news. Very few men groups.

Lastly I want to outline the point, which is women pretty much have all the advantage in dating and yet they shit on men all day. Men do that a lot less and men rights groups are the only place where people can speak up. We do NOT hate women here we just highly disapprove men-hating women with delusional dating standards.

Also here’s a simple one: if a woman shouts men are pigs on the street, no one will bat an eye. Can a man do that and not get stares? Give it a shot, I dare you. :)

Few_Sink_7386 · 2024-06-19T03:42:28+00:00

Feminism is Fascism

UnsureAndUnqualified · 2024-06-18T22:21:17+00:00

Just as a disclaimer: I don't really post here either but rather read through a few posts every now and then, so my opinion might not be what the consensus is on this sub, who knows. Also wall of text incoming, sorry chaps and chapines.

A lot of pro-men subs are right wing. Conservatives have put anti-feminism very high in their agenda and "meninism" and its offshoots have some easy overlap with those. So yes, I fully believe that a lot of random subs about men are toxic and anti-women in general. The "debate me" talking point is also straight out of the conservative playbook, see Crowder or Shapiro for examples. The trick is that you can't win these debates, as your "opponent" (for lack of a better word) will move the goal post, play constant attacks and do everything to debate around you, not with you. Luckily, a lot of people have become wise to this and don't engage them, good on those people. I guess especially feminist women had to learn those lessons with a lot of wasted hours trying to convince people who weren't even listening.
Secondly, askFeminists is a very big sub about a pretty sensitive topic in whatever "culture war" is happening right now. So finding trolls is also very much expected. You will also find trolls in vegan subs, socialist subs, everywhere. Even worse when those topics come to other more mainstream subs. People suck and a lot of people on here have nothing better to do with their time than to try and make you angry. It sucks. Maybe a lot of them are just misguided teens with a lot of time on their hands, who knows really...
Some of these guys may actually believe these strawmen arguments and make their points because of that. As someone who was deep in the whole anti-feminist youtube scene with Peterson and the rest: They can talk convincingly. That's all they do. But they repeat these bad arguments over and over and well enough for you to start believing them. So there's thousands of guys who watch the same videos all now having the same (bad!) arguments fed to them. Of course if even 10% of them want to seek an argument, that's hundreds of guys repeating the same arguments over and over. And there's no need to check if someone has already debunked it, because [insert internet guy here] wouldn't make the argument if it was easily debunkable! It must get really tiring really fast for these women.

Now I want these to be explanations, not excuses. There is no good reason to go into feminist spaces and troll them. It's unkind and a waste of time for everyone. And screw conservatives anyway. I was dumb as shit to believe even half of what they said and I don't want to make excuses for that type of behaviour.

It makes it a lot harder to take them seriously and I can see why there are women out there who openly mock men's rights groups as if they have no reason to feel that way (though that's not a mature response, I at least get it instead of getting defensive against the women as I used to do).

I find this very interesting. You ask why are so many men are toxic towards feminists. And yet you also know that there are women out there who mock men's rights groups, men's issues, and that men are not taken seriously about their problems. Now this isn't everybody, but it's also not a teeny tiny minority (at least on the internet, I have met much kinder people in person luckily). If MRAs are mocked and belittled, why wouldn't they feel like trolling these spaces is okay? Respect is a two way street and right now, neither side is really willing to give any. This issue is made even worse by the women you mention, using your ego as a punching bag. I think most men (at least on here) have experienced something similar, which leads to some emotional reactions that may not be too helpful to the discussion.

Also your question depends a lot on your framing and I'm sure most MRAs will disagree with you here:

I see men going on about how they're perpetual victims, can't handle debate/truth, etc. etc

and

When I go to pro-men subreddits, I mostly see the negative stereotypes women are always saying about those men. I don't typically see that when I go to pro-women subs.

Because depending on how you frame it, the women in the feminist subs were already not willing to debate (like I said, this is probably wise) and they discuss their problems (does that make them "perpetual victims"?). So depending on who you ask, you see the MRA strawmen also come true in some women-focused subs, at least from a certain biased point of view.

TLDR (or more of a conclusion really): We all have biases and depending how you approach each stereotype, both men and women show what the other side says about them. Also there is a big overlap between men's rights, anti-feminism, and conservatism. So one group that fits into some of these boxes will not represent all other groups in those boxes. This is not an excuse for toxic behaviour though and I see that a lot from men towards women but also from women towards men, just depending on the bubble. Both suck, that's why r/MensLib is my favourite sub about mens issues, I've never seen the same toxicity there. And while I enjoy this sub from time to time, I can feel the latent anger boil up in some posts, which really doesn't feel great.

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