for this sub to be successful. i think there needs to be some form of open communication. even with viewpoints you may not like.

HeForeverBleeds · 2019-07-13T21:18:48+00:00

The main right wing viewpoint I tend to disagree with is the overemphasis on gender roles. A lot of males' issues (fathers' rights, male-only selective service, marginalization of female-on-male domestic and sexual violence) are the byproduct of traditional gender stereotypes as much as they are of feminist theory

- Feminists say men are trash and can't be trusted around children; tradcons say mothers are better caregivers

- Feminists say men are responsible for war so men should be the ones fighting in it; tradcons say it's men's duty to protect women and children

- Feminists say violence is due to male entitlement, female oppression, toxic masculinity, the "power imbalance" males supposedly have over females, and so male violence against women and girls is the most important form of violence; tradcons say men should be strong enough to not be affected by violent women, that a real man never hits a woman (even in defense), that men shouldn't be bothered by sexual abuse by women

Neither feminists nor tradcons tend to show much concern for male victims, especially of female abusers

Additionally there's often hostility and shaming from the right wing towards men who aren't conventionally masculine and who don't fit their ideals of a "real man". There's a lot of attention in MRA discourse about how feminists attack conventionally masculine men, and this is true. But there's not much attention in MRA discourse about how tradcons attack unconventionally masculine men

Both are just as important. Men and boys should not be bullied into conforming to some other people's standards, whatever side those people are coming from

YetAnotherCommenter · 2019-07-14T05:07:24+00:00

I can only speak for myself, and as a libertarian I would be considered "not left wing" by the vast majority of this sub. However I agree with this sub's criticisms of feminism, and I support a gender-egalitarian and anti-traditionalist approach to men's issues. My beliefs on economics probably don't fit here, but my positions on gender absolutely do.

Regarding the "right wing viewpoints" surrounding men, here's where I disagree:

Traditionalism, neo-Traditionalism and a belief that back in the past the gender roles were good for men. These are all completely false. They're based on an historical delusion. The neo-traditionalist website may call itself "Return Of Kings" but under traditionalism there were very few kings and very many serfs.
Equating the sexual revolution and the birth of the second-wave women's movement with the "fall of men" (so to speak). Again, this is historically inaccurate.
Framing the "feminists vs. men's advocates" debate in terms of a rejection of gender essentialism vs. an acceptance of gender essentialism. This is not the primary issue of contention between feminists and MRAs. Not to mention, it is an outdated debate; feminism began to embrace certain kinds of gender essentialism in the wake of Carol Gilligan and Cultural Feminism, and these kinds of essentialism are present even in Intersectional Feminism.
Focusing on feminist critique of traditional masculinity, and framing the debate around whether or not traditional masculinity is good or bad. This framing ignores the fact that much of feminism actually imposes upon men even more duties to 'man up' for the sake of women. Feminism is not an anti-masculinity movement (nor an anti-traditionalist movement), rather it should be understood as a selectively traditionalist movement that wants men to embody convenient-to-women "white knight" aspects of masculinity.
A general belief that traditional gender roles are biologically ordained/natural and thus good. Not only is this a naturalistic fallacy, but even if biology does incline most people generally toward traditional preferences and desires (and this is probably the case), that doesn't justify a complex social shaming apparatus designed to enforce compliance. If anything the opposite is true; if gender traditionalism is natural, people would generally comply with it even in the absense of social enforcement.
The general proposition some right-wing men's advocates seem to have, that evolution and evolutionary psychology impose moral duties. This is ironic considering that about 15 years ago, the "right wing" were opposing evolution, but these days what seems to have happened is that a new secular right that strongly values the ideas of evolutionary theory has emerged. The problem is that evolution in and of itself is a completely amoral process. There is no necessary good or bad in an organism reproducing (i.e. having "evolutionary success") or failing to do so. When right-wing men's advocates moralize evolutionary theory, they fundamentally abuse it.

BlueOrange22 · 2019-07-13T21:29:49+00:00

I think it's a very confusing and messy line right now...it's like left and right and everything else is being blurred so much, that I don't know where I am anymore. Growing up I used to consider myself mostly liberal, not too political, and just looking at ideas individually. Now, it seems that liberal politics are heavily influenced by toxic "SJWism" and "intersectionality" in a way that just doesn't feel right. It's very confusing.

I like the mission statements of this sub, a moderate approach seems like the way to go.

serpentineeyelash · 2019-07-14T04:53:42+00:00

As the creator of r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates, I have already outlined many of my stances in the Mission Statement: https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/wiki/missionstatement Note that the Mission Statement is preliminary, so feel free to offer feedback on it.

I also second u/HeForeverBleed's comment in this thread.

As for how heavily the subreddit will be moderated, I think that will be a matter of learning by doing. Currently I am a bit torn between fostering open discussion and creating a community that can fill the ideological gap I see in the gender debate.

I think it's already apparent that the subreddit has attracted interest from people with a diversity of views. I hope that we will be able to communicate and get along. I hope this place can be a big tent for those who care about male issues (ranging from moderate to radical) and are on the left (ranging from moderate to radical).

turbulance4 · 2019-07-13T21:02:43+00:00

My guess: with regard only to the difference between right-wing MRAs and left-wing MRAs, the major (perhaps only major) critical point of differing opinion will be over abortion. I've hear a lot of right-wing MRAs refer to abortion as a way of killing father's babies without their consent. I don't really agree with that notion and believe abortion should be a maintained women's right. I would however like to look into men being able to opt-out of parenting requirements, for example, in cases of paternity fraud. The right-wing position on abortion would undermine that effort.

kor8der · 2019-07-14T19:28:50+00:00

I would say LPS would probably be one of those. As to how strictly children should be a personal or a community responsibility, and how one would handle a child with less than two legal parents.

Melthengylf · 2019-09-07T02:45:45+00:00

I believe the shaming of the admision of biology having even a small influence in society is the part I dislike the most.

gas_the_tradcons · 2019-07-15T12:40:54+00:00

Right wingers are hijackers and failures, I think there is no need to waste time talking to them.

Right wingers have failed in regards to mens issues, they refuse to learn as well.

I think right wingers should largely be shunned.

Title	for this sub to be successful. i think there needs to be some form of open communication. even with viewpoints you may not like.
Author	Forgetaboutthelonely
Upvotes	16
Comments	47
Date	July 13, 2019 8:28 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/ccu230/for_this_sub_to_be_successful_i_think_there_needs/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/for-this-sub-to-be-successful-i-think-there-needs.1064685 https://theredarchive.com/post/1064685

Comments