Men never get a fair shake -- ever

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Dominance hierarchies have been apart of nature longer than trees have existed on Earth.

Jordan Peterson has summarised the research and has interesting things to say about the dominance hierarchies of lobsters and their serotonin levels (a lobster nervous system is the same as a humans). Talking about rule 1 in his new book (12 rules for life) he made a plausible point about the serotonin levels in lobsters and how they affect hierarchy and dominance. I don’t think he’s much of an animal behaviourist himself but he has invoked Skinner and has done reading around the lobster nervous systems etc. which did kind of impress me (lobsters and humans diverged umpteen million years ago but the nervous systems are so similar that human anti depressants work on lobsters). Dominance hierarchies are central to his work and he’s not sucking his thumb to support his theories.

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[–]Kinetic_Wolf-2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit. Dominance hierarchies have been apart of nature longer than trees have existed on Earth.

Appeal to nature fallacy, so common. How trite. Not an argument.

“One man having authority over another” is a concept that dates back to creatures from before dinosaurs.

Restating the same fallacy.

Humans subconsciously recognize and act on dominance, and that’s reflected in any situation, not just society.

To state how things are or have been has 0% bearing on how people ought to act.

By taking away systems of laws and protections for people, you’re opening the floodgates for any untold numbers of people to suddenly become a very real and lethal threat to you and anyone you care about, if you do actually care about anyone but yourself.

You cannot be serious. There is no entity in the world more destructive on individuals and collectives of individuals than governments. It's the most idiotic contradictory system imaginable. It is to state that the world is filled with barbaric tyrants, so the only way to protect ourselves from them is to establish our own tyranny first!

The amount of brainwashing it takes to make anyone think there's a drop of sense or morality in government is absolutely bewildering. It's about the only thing the government does well, manipulate the minds of the young to become zombies of the state. Even so called "men going their own way" will gladly defend their oppressor.

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[–]Kinetic_Wolf1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You completely whiffed on the spirit of that fallacy. An appeal to nature is really based on assignment of a moral value (good vs bad) to something simply because it is 'natural' or exists in nature.

The appeal to nature fallacy is to state something as good (either in a moral sense or in an objective physical sense) due to it being a part of nature.

It is NOT a fallacy to use facts, scientifically accepted historical data, etc. to prove the existence of something. Not in the slightest. In fact, those are the logical pillars on which we build successful arguments.

To state facts of history is not a fallacy. To state facts of history in a way that presents them as an argument to support an "ought to do this today" is.

I.e. to claim that dominance hierarchies have always existed, therefore it is justified for them to exist today. Even in the same way. Well, no. We've beat nature in so many ways. Dominance hierarchies of violence are antiquated, immoral and counter-productive. There's no justification for them in a civil society. It's nothing more than organized barbarism.

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[–]Mitchel-2561 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The appeal to nature fallacy is to state something as good (either in a moral sense or in an objective physical sense) due to it being a part of nature.

No-one said it was good. The dominance hierarchy is there, regardless of how you feel about it. "Facts don't care about your feelings," as Shapiro would put it. We could, eventually, figure out how to work around or work against the innate hierarchical structures that are apart of our basic psychology.

Dominance hierarchies of violence are antiquated, immoral and counter-productive.

What do you think negotiation is predicated upon? When no verbal agreement can be reached, what do two disagreeing parties fall back on? What's the inevitable conclusion of a hostile conflict wherein words fail? Everyone just goes home? No, believe me, I don't like the idea that violence is the underlying idea which we negotiate and speak to avoid. I, too, would like to avoid violence, if at all possible. However, realize, moving towards anarchy reduces the likelihood of anyone to consider someone else's claim to life valid, since the only thing to protect them is themselves and those who surround them. Exclusively people with power would thrive in an anarchy by making agreements with others for protection and nourishment, and then establishing a livelihood for the people they seek to protect, whether that is a small group or a wider community. However, anyone beyond that circle is a non-issue, as far as they're concerned, and advocating for the abolition of lawful services would inevitably lead to more chaos than you're willing to admit.

[–]Mitchel-2560 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Appeal to nature fallacy, so common. How trite. Not an argument.

Biology, nimrod. Innate, deep-rooted psychology. If that's an "appeal to nature" and makes my stance invalid in your eyes, then you've guaranteed that I'd never trust you. That's as blatant and foolish of an anti-science declaration as any Intersectional Feminist has put forth.

Restating the same fallacy.

Trying to explain it out for you, you seem to need the extra help.

To state how things are or have been has 0% bearing on how people ought to act.

No shit, but you're trying to move us in a new direction that's both pointlessly destructive and mindlessly angsty.

You cannot be serious. There is no entity in the world more destructive on individuals and collectives of individuals than governments.

And what are those governments comprised of? To quote George Carlin:

"Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don’t fall out of the sky. They don’t pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It’s what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you’re going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain’t going to do any good; you’re just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it’s not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here… like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks."

Your answer to his conundrum here is to completely eradicate all systems, and, likely, all people that you disagree with so that you can have free reign in whatever anarchistic world you wish for. The exclusive term for that is selfish. Self-involved. Narcissistic. That's the common theme of anarchists and all of the permutations, such as AnCaps and AnComms. You act like it'd be good for everyone, and then choose to ignore the untold numbers of people who would needlessly die in a world in which they're given little chance to succeed, despite the strengths they possess.

In comparison, we could start correcting the educational system, remove the people from power that are directly causing the problems and keeping us fighting each other, and move towards preparing the coming generations for fixing the world that's been passed down.

You would rather burn it to the ground for your cheap thrills. Pull your head out of your ass.

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Are you familiar with Machinery of Freedom?

Yes, I have been studying libertarian philosophy for over 20 years

Machinery of Freedom is interesting idea but largely fails on many fronts once you confront the reality of human psychology

Like Socialism it looks good on paper but when reality hits it falls apart rather quickly

I would not advocate for absence of law. I would advocate for private law.

Law is government, law is the manifest of government. Once you have law you have government. Attempting to call it "private law" is oxymoronic term

Most people don't make such a distinction

I am not most people.

Is a corporate board a government? Many would call it a governing body, but I hesitate to call that a government.

Depends on the corporation and the type of soceity we are living in. If it is anarchocapitalist society like you envision then yes the corporate board would infact be the government of that society.

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I agree with some parts of anarchism, I see your point, but it’s also a matter of what type of hierarchy you accept, do you accept the hierarchy of gynocentrism in the court system? Or do you accept the hierarchy of a corrupt government? You get rid of the hierarchy but interestingly enough there would be a time to form a hierarchy to get rid of the old hierarchy and establish a society without hierarchy.

The problem is, that has not happened in modern civilization. You have to go back to the native tribes pre- industrial societies to see something like the Pirahã tribe as one example where there isn’t really a hierarchy like in a Saudi aristocracy or the American government. Anyway, the court hierarchy is pretty lousy considering divorce rape of men, thanks to whiteknight judges and cucks in office! I still think Hierarchies are around because woman are most into the hierarchy than men, Men had to work together more to hunt and defend territory from wild beasts. Only the weaker men are in such need of a master.

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Some recommended reading: Sigmund Freud's Beyond the Pleasure Principle

It's the work product of his studies around Eros (life instinct) and Thanatos (death instinct) which all humans share. Government exists within oneself to manage the internal struggle between these forces. Government exists outside oneself to manage the external, interpersonal struggles between these forces as they manifest in groups of people.

Government, in some form, is inevitable - period. (which gives me excruciating pain to say - but it is a sad fact.) There will never be a majority of humans with the absence of instinctual genetic code to band together and form a set of societal rules to maintain order, which is the essence of government.

To fight the existence of government is to literally fight what it is to be a civilized human being - whether you hate it or not. It's what is known as an "Objective Truth" - the kind of truth that is true whether you believe/agree with it or not.

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I've actually heard you can even catch it for having a heated argument with your SO. Especially if children can hear it and get scared..

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ALL wymns are cunts. Every fucking single last one of them. Remember that.

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Title	Men never get a fair shake -- ever
Author	BananaWilly
Upvotes	1762
Comments	196
Date	March 1, 2019 2:23 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/avzc8o/men_never_get_a_fair_shake_ever/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/men-never-get-a-fair-shake-ever.505862 https://theredarchive.com/post/505862

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