Asking for references to information

OldEgalitarianMRA · 2022-04-05T21:58:02+00:00

1.

On unfair divorce laws:

Short interview on the movie Divorce Corp

5 min

Great summary of many of the problems featured in the film Divorce Corp but the film is better. My link is for those with short attention spans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPIvnWitiLU

2.

Original research article showing that divorced men are 8 times more likely to commit suicide while divorced women showed no increase in suicide rate after divorce. Showing the very important variable of the divorce process and family court in causing suicide.

https://jech.bmj.com/content/57/12/993

shit-zen-giggles · 2022-04-05T21:50:08+00:00

overview of issues with high quality sources

The Social Determinants of Male Suicide

Format: Peer Reviewed Publication

Brief desc:

Abstract Men account for approximately 75% of suicides in the western world, with male suicide rates particularly pronounced in certain groups of men, including: (i) middle-aged men; (ii) men living in rural and remote regions; (iii) White men; (iv) Indigenous men; (v) military veterans; and (vi) men involved in the criminal justice system. The reasons for suicide are complex, and suicide is rarely the result of a single factor. Instead, a combination of proximal and distal factors can interact over time to increase risk. Evidence suggests that some risk factors may be experienced much more intensely in men compared to women. In particular, the research literature indicates three powerful risk factors for male suicide, namely: (i) unemployment; (ii) divorce; and (iii) mental illness and substance use issues. Men experiencing these risk factors frequently face high levels of isolation, social stigma and financial strain leading to a weakening of social integration and connection, and a diminishing sense of meaning and purpose. Of note, male suicide rates have been rising steadily in the last 15 years, with several studies linking this rise to the 2007–2008 Global Financial Crisis and the subsequent Great Recession, which negatively affected many male-dominated industries.

bystanders indifferent to f->m but reactant to m->f ipv

Format: video

Length: 1:00

Brief desc: Women verbaly and physically abuses her (supposed) boyfriend. Bystanders are indifferent (or positive)

THE SOCIAL EXPERIMENT | The Rise Of Female Violence

Format: video

Length: 1:20

Brief desc: women behaves violently towards her partner in public, by standers ignore it

TV host shames crowd for laughing at male victim of domestic violence

Format: video

Length: 1:20

Brief desc: Male talk show guest talks about his experience with a violent girlfriend. Majority female audience laughts their asses off until talk show host calls them out.

10 Male "Privileges"

Format: video

Length: 15:53

Brief desc: collection of social, legal and institutional discrimination that men face

gettin_paid_to_poop · 2022-04-05T21:36:41+00:00

Not sure if this counts as an example but a friend's workplace named their company charity to be an anti-domestic violence charity that solely helped female victims (not against that in principle, it is a worthwhile cause, and though male victims get less help you could make that argument that different genders of victims have different needs, so specifically catering to one gender isn't necessarily a bad thing).

However, he was asked by his work (along with all other male employees) if they would "take a pledge", to never commit violence against women, or be silent if they witnessed it.

He did it, but felt uncomfortable afterwards and we talked about it. I've not quite got the right words yet to express how I/he felt about it but it felt wrong to ask the guys to do this, like they were already potential criminals who needed to control their toxic masculinity urges to hurt women. I get that women are more likely to be victims of domestic violence, but men can be victims too and asking for the pledge felt like it alienated those people & discouraged that kind of discussion.

Imagine taking a crime that women are statistically more likely to commit, and asking all women in the workplace to take a pledge not to do it... I think there would be some pushback there, and rightly so IMO, as neither they nor anyone should be treated as potential criminals.

Btw I'm open to hearing other opinions on this, trying to work out how I feel about it still atm.

TorchwoodCaptainJack · 2022-04-06T00:21:44+00:00

You prevent it by actually caring and talking to males. I have nobody in my life willing to talk about anything and even if there is that rare occurrence they try and solve said issues telling you what to do. Especially when said fixes have been tried. People just want to pretend to care so youll stick around for when they need help. Because then it makes them feel needed and that they have a purpose in life. I disregard anything nice said about me because i can guarantee they dont mean it. And before someone says they do. In my entire life nobody has ever meant anything nice they have said.

tenchineuro · 2022-04-05T23:33:47+00:00

I have the privilege of working around women who are open to hearing about how men are oppressed and things that they can do to help prevent male suicide.

Colour me doubtful.

The entire mental health field is openly misandrist and has defined masculinity as a pathology and has also defined boys as defective girls.

WeEatBabies · 2022-04-06T00:42:26+00:00

It's not just suicide, but we are also driven into substance abuse and homelessness (which can lead to suicide as well) or other forms of death like overdose or freezing to death.

This occurs when we are separated from our children : https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/828832

FTFA "Study: Men doing more family caregiving could lower their risk of suicide"

The problem is we are driven away from our children by the family court system and the Duluth model approach to domestic violence.

A system which incentivizes women tremendously to lie about domestic violence, or just start a fight, even if the guy has is on video that he merely protected himself, his children and paycheck will be taken away. He will be evicted onto the streets by the police on the spot, while still forced to pay for the mortgage/rent and services where his ex resides. Plus she will get full custody of the children, thus more money.

Often times he did nothing wrong. The Duluth Model needs to be reworked into a gender neutral one!

alrun · 2022-04-05T23:28:48+00:00

-> Dr. Warren Farrel Farrel @Youtube You can find a lot of things there.

And please do not focus on Sexism if you want to prevent suicides.

What’s the point of asking RU OK? when “men don’t talk” makes the point that society needs to be able to listen. Men do address their problems.

You can see in Suicide within 12 months of contact with mental health services: national clinical survey that help centers already had contact, but were not able to give lasting assistance. And in case of psychology and psychiatry the overall gender gap is pretty female. Starting from doctors to nurses to ergo therapists, therapists, ... There is a very female view how things are to be done. You will not find a low level woodworking man cave. Because man caves are bad - might have worked in the past, but now this is not to be done. I have seen various men leave facilities because they could not connect with the help offered.

The next thing is that "public wording" is contra productive. E.g. "Men need to talk more" for suicide prevention. That is kinda victim blaming. And most times not true. "How is your job?" "Well, kinda ok." "Ok, my day was great." (Where was the followup question to hit the "kinda ok"?) There is a public conception that men are self sufficient, so a man will not cry in public - he knows there is little chance for help unlike for a woman.

A German Coach Vera Birkenbihl said - she can ask her daughter if things are ok and get a straight answer. But she cannot ask her son in the similar fashion. With him she needs to do the dishes and talk about stuff and then he might disclose that things are awry in school.

Oncefa2 · 2022-04-06T05:11:10+00:00

I have three full-length academic level psychology books for you, and two bonus websites at the end ran by the Male Psychology Network and The Centre For Male Psychology.

Two of these books are available on SpringerLink and the other is a textbook used in several universities that is actually very affordable on it's own.

I assume the two on SpringerLink are peer-reviewed and the other one has gone through whatever kind of process that college level textbooks go through.

The Palgrave Handbook of Male Psychology and Mental Health

https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-04384-1

Here is one except from the book:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/ny08m6/a_friendly_reminder/

It is a collection of chapters written by various experts in male psychology, most of whom are associated with the Male Psychology Network.

Perspectives in Male Psychology: An Introduction

https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Perspectives+in+Male+Psychology%3A+An+Introduction-p-9781119685357

My review:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MalePsychology/comments/nxemkq/perspectives_in_male_psychology_an_introduction/

This is an introductory textbook on male psychology. It is designed to be cheap and accessible for groups like yours (which often lack adequate funding). This is written by two of the authors of the above book, both of whom are associated with the Male Psychology Network and are also in charge of The Centre For Male Psychology.

Of note possibly to you is that one of the authors is a woman (I know you mentioned in another comment that many of your colleges are women who are coming around to this topic).

Men’s Issues and Men’s Mental Health: An Introductory Primer

https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-86320-3

This is the one I would recommend the most if you only pick one. It will have everything you need in it, and contains more sources than you will knows what to do with. Here is a post I made recently from one section of the book:

https://www.reddit.com/r/malementalhealth/comments/tszcep/a_recent_psychology_textbook_identified_buzzwords/

There is a lot more in there though.

It was written by a Canadian college professor who seems to be doing really great work if you look him up. In fact he has a YouTube channel for a project he started to create informative clips and movies about mental health.

Here is a playlist of everything he's done related to men's mental health. One appears to be a joint project with CAFE, or maybe funded outright by CAFE (CAFE runs a network of men's centers in Canada that support men's mental health and offer resources for abuse victims):

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKGu0ZIrR7ZymJPx0-1zT8he_WZrVaAXN

Here is his page on Psychology Today:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/contributors/rob-whitley-phd

His book seems to draw on a lot of the same work as the above two books. The chapter about male suicide goes into a lot of detail about the role that sexism plays, as well as social factors and things like that.

There is also a lot of stuff here:

https://malepsychology.org.uk/

And here:

https://www.centreformalepsychology.com/

I hope this helps you.

Mhs7G_jeQ5Osi-xEp9_i · 2022-04-06T07:54:01+00:00

Valiant effort, best of luck.

When you finish it, if it goes well, could you consider "publishing" the document on this site... It Sounds like a great data rich fact checked review that could be useful as a resources... Complete with your name and institution and all

Mhs7G_jeQ5Osi-xEp9_i · 2022-04-06T04:19:24+00:00

So, putting aside that each hospital has a room to mutilate the genitals of baby boys fully stocked with instruction manuals on all the things that go wrong like if he screams so hard he starts choking to death, here’s an old comment by Karen straughn in response to “oh she’s not a true feminist/that’s not real feminism” that I use that includes a ton of Google-able search terms, if you want a ton more videos to add that I’m not going to format

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

MRA_TitleIX · 2022-04-06T13:22:06+00:00

Men underperform in education across the board. Less likely to go to college after high-school. Less likely to get aid. Less likely to graduate on time. The trends were getting worse before covid. The already accelerating trends sped up with covid. For example, men were 78% of total lost enrollment during covid, but they are only 42% of students. When there was an 10 point gap in enrollment (45 women to 55 men) the US had civil rights laws passed (title ix) and made a national effort to get more women into college. Now that the gap is flipped, and 50% worse (42 men to 58 women) for about two decades, I have a hard time getting the office of civil rights to even apply the law equally.

For example, OCR ruled that calling an event that wasn't allowed to discriminate "all female" wasn't illegal. Why? Because "women's studies" was ruled legal by courts a while back. They fail to read case law and only take their own conclusions. Women's studies is legal because studying the contributions of women to society is a legal and worthwhile subject to be educated on. It is legal because it describes legal content. I spoke with my civil rights attorney who said they aren't aware of any case law that could possibly support any gendered language in titles and descriptions. It only supports gendered languaged when it describes legal content. But OCR intentionally ignores this. Can we really say that civil rights laws do protect men when they aren't enforced?

Companies know this. Right now Verizon is running a women-only scholarship that guarantees an internship at the end. This is a violation of almost every single civil rights law that mentions "sex." Lack of enforcement combined with no penalties when enforced has produced flagrant violations and the boldness to flaunt civil rights violations as part of an advertising/PR campaign. We don't get to this level of fucked without clear inaction by enforcement agencies.

I am currently working on a complaint against an American university where women are overrepresented in students, administration, and instructors yet the school sent an email out saying they are trying to recruit more women as students and staff.

A university system in Texas that is coed was recently declared as a matter of state law as being "women-focused" dispite women being the overwhelmingly overrepresented gender. The state AG office was recently named as a respondant in my case against this, but there isn't an investigation yet so I'm not holding my breath.

Take a look at the department/school level diversity statements at university of Louisville. When men are overrepresented in a dept the university includes gender in the diversity goal. When women are overrepresented they drop gender as a diversity goal for the dept. Four of the top five gender gaps for depts favor women. In social work and nursing, those gender gaps were about 5x the gap of the most extreme gap favoring men (mental approx without looking up hard numbers again).

While in university I was explicitly denied access to job fairs, classes, project teams, mentoring, awards etc simply based on my gender. It was well known in my dept that women would get the first internship seats and the rest would be filled by men. Recruiters would pull aside women to talk to at job fairs, and men would hand in resumes like nameless procession line. As a final kick in the teeth, the University retaliated when I complained to OCR resulting in real damages (like graduating late because they starting spamming my email which included ones to my advisor). OCR dismissed the case without a single reference to law as having informed their decision. They didn't even open an investigation before their dismissal.

While in undergrad, the university president said something along the lines of "we had the largest percentage of women ever this year, it must be why the grades were so high for the incoming class." And he got a fucking round of applause from the faculty and students. Some people stood to clap.

The Supreme Court has had the opinion for decades that discrimination always causes an invidious environment. It is fundamentally impossible to have discrimination and not foster resentment from the excluded class. Take a look around the American uni system and it is extremely clear why men don't want to go to college anymore. Why bother when you are a second class student as a matter of explicit institutional policy?

We are seeing a colossal social resignation of men. Society still continues to justify discrimination against the aggregate of men based on the tail end of the distribution (upper 0.5%) of men dominating executive and political representation. The office of civil rights explicitly allows the preference of the included class to be used as a justification for continued discrimination against the excluded class. Not joking, OCR says that the preference of women to have women-only classes is justification for them. How have we become so confused on civil rights that we have upended Brown v. Board? Courts rejected the preference of white students to keep schools segregated (obviously the correct ruling). Courts make little meaningful distinction between race and sex discrimination. Yet here we are. The entire system is rotting with policies that explicitly discriminate against the underrepresented and underperforming gender because "CEOs and politicians are mainly male."

Anyone who doesn't understand why men are disappearing from education (grade school included) isn't paying attention. Testosterone is linked to status seeking behavior (improving pecking order position). Men have an innate drive for improving their position in society. When the best way to do that, education, is being ripped away from them is it any surprise male suicide is a massive issue? Tbh I think we haven't even really begun to see the impact of these educational issues. Give it 20 more years, I fully expect male suicide rates to begin spiking in the coming years. I hope I'm wrong. I really fucking hope I am very very wrong.

If you have any questions feel free to ask. I have a shitload of facts and stats using official government data. Check the posts in my profile if you want to do some digging on your own. My post history had a heap of info and cited resources too monumental for a single comment to do justice to it.

MRA_TitleIX · 2022-04-06T13:32:39+00:00

Men's high suicide rate is often compared to women's high attempt rate. This is fundamentally flawed by how the data is collected. It is typically gathered based on reports in hospital visits. Men are less likely to report injury as a suicide attempt (not calling reckless behavior passive suicidality). Men are more likely to use binary outcomes like using a gun.

Women's choice of method is often less likely to be a binary outcome of dead vs totally fine. This results in more hospital visits and doctors are more likely to classify these things as suicide attempts.

Both men and women's suicide rates should be of concern. Comparing them as a means of negating the other is vile, toxic, and completely unproductive.

I would absolutely love for the discussion to be appropriately nuanced by including these extra factors. The cause of suicidal behavior is different between genders and looking at how a person's lived experiences (regardless of gender) impact these thoughts is critical. Listening to the voices of men doesn't mean we can't also listen to women.

Note: I don't have the sources on hand, but I am sure someone here does. If someone could link some of these things it would be really helpful to OP.

sorebum405 · 2022-04-06T13:59:37+00:00

I made a post about the gender empathy gap.

HolidayWallaby · 2022-04-08T09:51:06+00:00

Can we sticky this? This is a goldmine. Or have these added to a wiki?

Title	Asking for references to information
Author	coe92
Upvotes	35
Comments	60
Date	April 5, 2022 9:20 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/tx5h36/asking_for_references_to_information/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/asking-for-references-to-information.1111152 https://theredarchive.com/post/1111152

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