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College's ‘deconstruct masculinity’ program doubles in size

ThePoliticalHat

October 29, 2017
68 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=10051
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Post Information
Title College's ‘deconstruct masculinity’ program doubles in size
Author

ThePoliticalHat

Upvotes 68
Comments 27
Date October 29, 2017 5:46 PM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/79hwhi/colleges_deconstruct_masculinity_program_doubles/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/colleges-deconstruct-masculinity-program-doubles.912172
https://theredarchive.com/post/912172
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Comments

[–]BisquitBill 14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The program was launched by Paul Ang, the school’s Director of Men’s Engagement, immediately after the university received a $300,000 “violence prevention” grant from the Department of Justice, though a school official told Campus Reform that the program is entirely funded by the university itself, and is not supported by the federal grant.

So, there is a financial incentive to start this program.

[–]Tedesche 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Just a matter of time before feminists start urging colleges to make these courses mandatory, mark my words.

[–]Onion_Guy 18 points19 points20 points 8 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

I go to northwestern and I did that program last year. It’s falsely portrayed in this light, it was a fantastic program. Paul Ang is a really cool guy and honestly there’s a lot this sub misconstrues.

Also, nümen being the title is a play on Northwestern being abbreviated as NU, not something about German women (really guys?)

I’ve been meaning to make a more detailed post about this but I’ll nutshell it here because I’m on mobile.

Deconstructing masculinity is often seen as an attack on men in the eyes of MRAs, and a just attack on men in the eyes of clueless opposition/most wannabe-woke girls on campus. Deconstructing masculinity is EXACTLY what we ask for on this sub all the time - we examine what it is about the portrayals and societal concepts of what it is to be a man that says men can’t cry, that forces men into a bullshit belief that they don’t matter, that anger is the only acceptable emotion, that our value is only on the money we make or how useful we can be to women/family.

Deconstructing masculinity is not a “you are toxic because of how you are born,” it’s a “society at large has, for whatever historical reasons, prioritized putting men in one light, and we want to talk together about why that might be and what we can do about it." It was a space to genuinely discuss our own experiences with masculinity and challenge each other to acknowledge and consider how our gender identity affects (or doesn't affect, or could affect more/less) who we are as a whole.

I know this sub tends to see things as pretty black and white, and something like this probably rubs people the wrong way, but I got a lot out of the program and I'm glad to see it expand.

feel free to ask any questions you'd like. Honest discussion and open minds make the world go round.

[–]HotDealsInTexas 23 points24 points25 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Deconstructing masculinity is often seen as an attack on men in the eyes of MRAs, and a just attack on men in the eyes of clueless opposition/most wannabe-woke girls on campus.

That's because... guess what... it IS an attack on men almost every single goddamn time.

Deconstructing masculinity is EXACTLY what we ask for on this sub all the time - we examine what it is about the portrayals and societal concepts of what it is to be a man that says men can’t cry, that forces men into a bullshit belief that they don’t matter, that anger is the only acceptable emotion, that our value is only on the money we make or how useful we can be to women/family.

Yeah, that sounds fine. But time after time, in practice, every single Feminist-backed program of this type has turned out to declare that the problem is men - men can't cry because other men shame them, etc - and that the solution is to change men, and to adopt a new "healthy" model of masculinity which just happens to get rid of all the bits involving assertiveness and standing up for yourself while leaving all the parts involving giving women preferential treatment at your own expense intact. And then when men say: "Okay, we're doing all these healthy things, why is no one listening to us or treating us like human beings," suddenly they're toxic, entitled, and so on.

I have seen this pattern repeat itself so many fucking times. At this point, if you are using language like "Toxic Masculinity," "Rape Culture" (except maybe in the context of talking about how male rape victims are treated compared to female rape victims), and "Patriarchy," the burden of proof is on YOU to show that your program isn't like all the others like it, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Feel free to provide some sources on what the actual curriculum is, and how people in this program are actually talking.

Deconstructing masculinity is not a “you are toxic because of how you are born,” it’s a “society at large has, for whatever historical reasons, prioritized putting men in one light, and we want to talk together about why that might be and what we can do about it."

That's the motte. The bailey is "You are toxic because of how you are socialized," which isn't really any better than "you are toxic because of you are born."

Let me put it this way. How would it have been received in that course if you were to express anger over how men are treated, over how our lives are literally valued less than women's, over shit like governments letting women retire earlier while men live shorter lifespans. How would it have been received if you said false rape/abuse accusations are a serious issue, or called for reproductive rights (e.g. LPS) for men, or said that a particular expectation placed on men was largely driven by women's preferences?

[–]hottake_toothache 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Awesome response.

[–]Onion_Guy 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I genuinely do believe that would have sparked discourse and led to a productive conversation. NU is overwhelmingly liberal, and so am I generally, but this conversation about rights and issues challenging what I think is the secondary narrative is a conversation that deserves to happen and would be received with an open mind. However, blaming women or ignoring the problems perpetuated by men WITHIN that socialization is not the way to go about that. Thanks for putting thought into that comment - I agree on principle, and I’m sorry that I can’t better cite the specific “curriculum” (more like a list of things we discussed) without delving into my notes a bit.

There were a few things present that absolutely pissed me off - things like statistics on DV and SAV that were misconstrued as they often are to point at men as a bigger problem, but our discussions didn’t refuse to flirt with the facts of reciprocal domestic violence not being gendered (or even being more often initiated by women), or other things like that. a lot of the time, I think conservatives on this sub (not knocking political beliefs or trying to generalize overmuch) see anything colleges do as too liberal, unnecessary, and anti-men to a fault, but this is a world class educational institution that doesn't piss about with false facts or skirt around issues to fit a narrative.

[–]HotDealsInTexas 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

However, blaming women or ignoring the problems perpetuated by men WITHIN that socialization is not the way to go about that. Thanks for putting thought into that comment - I agree on principle, and I’m sorry that I can’t better cite the specific “curriculum” (more like a list of things we discussed) without delving into my notes a bit.

Sure. I agree that collectively blaming women isn't moral or helpful. However, programs based around Feminist theory generally seem to assume that women have no institutional or social power to affect men's lives, and ignore the role that mate selection has on men's behavior.

but this is a world class educational institution that doesn't piss about with false facts or skirt around issues to fit a narrative.

Some of the nutty anti-male programs I've heard of have been at places like Harvard or Princeton (I think those two have been involved, although I could be thinking of racial stories). An institution's reputation for being "world-class" by traditional metrics really doesn't say anything about whether it's been taken over by SJWs.

[–]Onion_Guy 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Hey, that’s fair. Though I’d say public media outreach has to verge on overly PC, while the gender studies classes I've taken have had the professor correcting or chuckling at overenthusiastic students thinking they're paragons of social justice at 19.

[–]DontTrustRedditors 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not going to trust anything with a goal of 'social justice', which pretty much just means revenge against men and white people when put into practice. Sorry.

A bunch of rich kids jerking themselves off while ignoring the economic catastrophe of the last decade.

[–]Canttakethewhyfromme 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Was it discussed at all that many of the traits women define as toxic are often the same traits (or tied to the same traits) that women are usually attracted to in men? When attractive women desire aggressive men who play competitive sports, wrestle, hunt, etc, they encourage that behavior. When businesses promote men who are more assertive and aggressive, they encourage this behavior and since women gravitate towards more successful men, they are again, encouraging this behavior.

[–]Onion_Guy 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes it was, though this wasn’t as much a focus on women’s opinions as general society, including media representations and the like. I think all of these things are more interrelated than not, personally.

[–]Adanu0 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like bullshit excuses to reinforce the idea that gender is a social construct, and not biological.

This is utterly insane that anyone can look at this and not think it's an attack on the whole male gender, both from a historical and modern perspective.

[–]Jillian0424 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That sounds like an awesome program! I'd love to read an even more detailed post all about the cirriculmn or exercises you did from either you or someone who has been through it :)

I genuinely want to see programs that are for men that focus on them... for them. Something that encourages them to be their best, whatever that looks like. I want those kinds of programs to be largely accepted and normalized. This sounds like a potentially great start!

[+]Gregorian_Tree1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I was just going to lurk on this account, to save time for actual writing, but ...

There's two broad swath issues that you're glossing over, here.

The first is the only socialization process under scrutiny, being picked over for flaws, and seeing these kinds of classes ... is masculinity. It's pretty tough to argue that only masculinity has negative aspects to it or that socialization occurs in a vacuum, such that males and females in a society don't collaboratively engage in it. The very fact all this attention is focused on one gender and one gender only is part of the pitch, and that pitch is that masculinity is flawed and has to change. That's a sexist stance at its outset, given all the abundant flaws to modern femininity, and as we'll see when I move into my second point, it's ultimately founded on a cherry picking process.

Secondly, 'men don't cry', 'anger is the only acceptable emotion' ... these are childish caricatures. They aren't men, they are someone's cartoony, hopelessly vile portrayals of men, and as a result they cannot possible hope to capture the gamut of male contribution to society. Where in this world is there space for the reams of male literature, male art, male music, male sculpture, male dance ... the vast bulk of our historical artistic legacy comes from men and shows a simply staggering degree of emotional complexity that's getting utterly left out of this discussion.

Clearly, our forms of masculinity are flexible enough to allow for male bodybuilders at the same time as it allows for male poets, and has for most of human history. Self-selecting for just the negative aspects of masculinity, as if they were the true exemplars of the gender, isn't honest. Why are Basho or Wilfred Owens or Pollock or Glenn Gould or Nureyev not used as exemplars of the breadth of emotional depth of masculinity that already exists. It's doesn't need to be built or found, it's part of masculinity already, but you sure wouldn't know it from these classes.

And, this last point expands out into parenting ... there is a goodly number of men who absolutely love their partners and children, and who express that in myriad ways, every single day. Classes like this demean the men that coddle sick kids, who give shoulder rubs to stressed spouses, who are engaged and active in their kid's lives. Maybe because it's at the university level, and so most of the students aren't parents, this aspect of masculinity has been largely unexplored, but it's a grievous sin given the degree of love men show to their family members.

[–]Onion_Guy 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Good points.

I’d note that it’s not a class, just a weekly meeting and discussion mostly led by other students. We talked pretty consistently about the positive range of emotion in men, especially as pertains to members of their family, but I also wonder if it’s just another aspect of our socialization that we don’t think of male poets, artists, etc. as paragons of masculinity through their art the way we generally do think of Arnold Schwarzenegger, David Hasselhoff or Chuck Norris as (memey, overblown) paragons of masculinity through their physical prowess and expressions of dominance and sexuality.

Ultimately, it’s all just more to think about. This group/program isn’t about trying to solve problems or blame men, really. Just thinking a bit about it all since it doesn’t get examined in a positive light very frequently.

You’re very right that masculinity shouldn’t be the only thing examined. However, I think femininity (as an example of another identity) isn’t entirely equivalent - women are encouraged to do anything, not as boxed in as men based on this socialization. You’ve got housewives glorified as much as the go-get-em lawyers and businesswomen. There’s a pretty active vibe of “play like a girl,” “girl power,” etc. that doesn’t really lend itself to questioning what aspects of femininity and female performance need to be directly examined. Ronda Rousey and Rachael Ray compared to Floyd Mayweather and Gordon Ramsay - if you can see my implications there of the differences in their portrayals and how gender performance influences their career and decisions.

[–]JestyerAverageJoe 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Deconstructing masculinity is EXACTLY what we ask for on this sub all the time

it’s a “society at large has, for whatever historical reasons, prioritized putting men in one light, and we want to talk together about why that might be and what we can do about it."

I don't think you understand what this sub is about.

something like this probably rubs people the wrong way

I can't imagine what would make you say that.

[–]Onion_Guy 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Well, half of this sub is just “feminists suck” and “watch this woman get rekt lol,” I’m here for the actual fighting for men’s rights and making the world better for myself and my future sons

[–]Sparkle-Luna 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Feminists do suck and their is grievances against women that men need to let out from time to time.

[–]harpsichordpurr 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This is a legitimate opinion if you're 14. At some point you grow up, acknowledge both sides of a grievance and try to fix things rather than just whine about it in your parents basement.

[–]Sparkle-Luna 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The feminist sub is that way mate, you're in the wrong sub if the first thought that comes to your mind is adhominems and shaming language.

[–]harpsichordpurr 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

True! I'll head out then...Shaming language and ad hominems are wayyyyy better than people who are delusional.

[–]Halafax 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Paul Ang is a really cool guy and honestly there’s a lot this sub misconstrues.

Google says he's gone now? Something about him going shortly after a title IX administrator left.

Semi-related question: wtf is NU's "social justice education" program? They helpfully provide a "deconstructing whiteness" class to go with Ang's "deconstructing masculinity" one.

[–]Onion_Guy 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Haven’t heard much about the whiteness workshop, frankly it seemed dumb to me, but the person who runs it is incredibly cool and professional so even though I kinda laugh when I see the advertisements I think she’s doing good work overall.

[–]theDmc231 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Who gives us male privilege? Other males or is it a societal stereotype?

[–]Singulaire 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

NU Men

funny coincidence

[+]NateRomanoff1 points 8 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I'd like to point out that the program is called "nü men," and "nü" in Chinese pinyin is "female." So there's that.

[–]TurtleOnTheRocks 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd like to point out that it's called that because it's at Northwestern University

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