How do those who attribute differences in gender expression to social constructionism reconcile their beliefs with trans individuals and hard sciences?

firmness · 2014-06-01T06:21:36+00:00

Newly minted Social Scientist here. This is because social sciences are not "sciences" Our research paradigms are built on faulty assumptions, and social constructivism as a research methodologies is highly suspect - more akin to a political movement than any sort of approach to understanding phenomena.

Biologists and Anthropologists, for starters, would have much more useful models to help us frame this conversation. But this scientific approach is seen as sexist and homophobic - somehow, some way, this was allowed to happen. Now, there is not such thing as reality.

Vegemeister · 2014-06-01T06:45:57+00:00

I once asked a gender studies professor how pure constructionists would answer the objection that their position contradicts the existence of transgender people and implies the existence of souls.

We went around in circles for about ten minutes and didn't get anywhere, and commiserated about what we could find out if it weren't for those pesky ethics committees. He didn't really answer directly, and he was always noncommittal about his own positions, so I don't know if he actually was a pure constructionist.

So sorry, I have no fucking clue.

PenguinbananaKaoru · 2014-06-01T11:39:16+00:00

Hey, I just wanted to recomend the book "Delutions of Gender" by Cordelia Fine, a neuroscientist. It shows how actually science has not proved that there is a biological basis. For gender roles, and socialisation goes a lot deeper than you think. For instance, parents look into the eyes of baby girls more than baby boy, and spend more time talking to them, possibly leading (combined with other factors) to make girls appear to have better reading and speaking skills from a young age. And with the topic of trans people, I myself and trans, and it doesn't have anything to do with gender roles, it's about how you feel about your body's sex. So, I feel my body should be male, but I still like some feminine stuff and act in a feminine way. Yes, some trans people fit their gender stereotypes, but so do most cis people.

AlphaWookie · 2014-06-01T07:05:58+00:00

There is no correct answer yet on gender and sexuality. Untill sexual idenity and attraction in identical twins is answered. No one can claim that you are born gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, trans or that gender and sex is a social construct. It's all snake oil still.

Gstreetshit · 2014-06-01T07:35:29+00:00

They cant reconcile them. They are full of crap.

ezetemp · 2014-06-01T11:58:00+00:00

I'm a bit unclear on what you're trying to get at. While I agree that the biological influences on gender identity and behaviour are strong (and in my opinion largely immutable), it is also quite apparent that pretty much all expressions and roles that we associate with gender are on sliding scales and most are only attributable to a specific gender on an aggregated statistical level.

Even the pure biological expressions aren't exactly binary in their nature; genital ambiguity has a surprisingly high incidence. The same, of course, applies to sexual orientation.

Now, if we statistically obtain traits with higher expression in groups with a specific genetic and biological make up, call such a group a gender and say the trait is typical for that gender, construct a role including the typical traits and suggest that people of that genetic make up do or should conform to the role, that would be moving in to the area of social constructs.

That would be one way of reconciling the idea of gender (roles and expressions) as a social construct with biology as a determinant on an individual level that determines statistical distribution of traits, but that would require a consistent approach of considering role and expression related aspects of gender only on aggregate levels.

However, such an approach would also specifically prevent actions on individual levels based on group membership, such as affirmative action, as it is never the aggregate group that is disadvantaged but the aggregate group containing a higher prevalence of individuals with traits that make them disadvantaged, meaning the appropriate action would be to specifically aid the individuals with those traits no matter what group they belong to.

I'm not sure that helps and I suspect a lot of the social sciences community actually can't reconcile those beliefs as they often appear to hold various conflicting interests close at heart of which adherence to scientific principles isn't one. But I think it's at least possible. Depending on how you define various aspects of gender.

MRSPArchiver · 2014-06-01T05:39:25+00:00

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Chel_of_the_sea · 2014-06-01T07:26:27+00:00

Trans person here. Gender identity (which is weakly established to be innate) and gender expression (which is social) are distinct objects.

TRPACC · 2014-06-01T10:47:25+00:00

There might be feminists that believe that in /r/AskFeminists , if there are not there will be ones that can give you the answer.

ThePigmanAgain · 2014-06-01T11:15:44+00:00

"science has effectively proven gender expression is primarily biological"

Really? Where is the evidence for this? Apart from a few twits who can't figure out what's in their shorts you don't give any actual evidence. If you knew anything about history and different cultures you would realize that what you call gender is indeed mostly culturally constructed. Georgian men wearing make-up, big tough highlanders and south sea islanders wearing skirts, and that's just the start of it.

SchalaZeal01 · 2014-06-01T13:19:31+00:00

How is it then, that science has effectively proven gender expression is primarily biological and still this information is largely ignored by the social science community?

Trans people are not using gender expression, but gender identity.

Gender expression are social norms about clothing, behavior and interests, that are, for one reason or another (regardless of why or how it came to be) associated with one sex. I could guess body language is also part of this, but it's much less open to modification, either willfully or not.

Gender identity is a part of the brain which tells you which group of people you most resemble on a biological level, but without knowing their phenotype (ie instinctual sense of belonging).

ChrisECole · 2014-06-01T15:01:47+00:00

Except masculine trans women and feminine trans men. The reason for trans people tending to express themselves in hard gender lines is due to wanting and/or needing to pass as that gender. Usually for their own sake of mind but also for safeties sake. Also, nonbinary people would like to have a word with you.

giegerwasright · 2014-06-01T17:35:46+00:00

This statement

The mere existence of trans people, many of which report feeling like they were born the wrong sex at a very young age should be enough to reevaluate ones stance.

contradicts this statement;

science has effectively proven gender expression is primarily biological

Title	How do those who attribute differences in gender expression to social constructionism reconcile their beliefs with trans individuals and hard sciences?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	7
Comments	97
Date	June 1, 2014 5:38 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/270g1e/how-do-those-who-attribute-differences-in-gender-/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-do-those-who-attribute-differences-in-gender.1617869 https://theredarchive.com/post/1617869

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