Question from a feminist, part 1.

The_Patriarchy · 2012-11-05T04:16:54+00:00

In your view, which areas that the feminist movement consider to be (important) feminist issues, do you consider either 1) not issues at all, or 2)issues, but which has nothing to do with any sort of gender bias ect. And why.

I could list a bunch of shit and still not cover it all. I would suggest you read "Who Stole Feminism?" by Christina Hoff Sommers, as it outlines most of the failings of modern day feminism. She terms it "gender feminism", and refers to normal people who just believe in equality as "equity feminists", however I disagree with that. As I've outlined here feminism involves more than simple belief in equality. In fact, feminism is predicated on the belief that women, as a class, are oppressed relative to men, as a class. Those that don't accept that central tenet (the most obvious manifestation of which being "patriarchy"), but believe in equality, are simply egalitarians...not "equity feminists".

With that being said, here are a few highlights of major feminist beliefs/issues which I reject or otherwise do not believe.

"Patriarchy" -- here's why...here's a bonus.
The feminist redefinition of "sexism", because it's based on bullshit and is intentionally designed to excuse sexism directed at men.
The myth that women are paid 77% of what men earn for the same work...because it is bullshit...bonus1...bonus 2...bonus 3...bonus 4...bonus 5...bonus 6...ad infinitum
etc.

English is not my native language, and I was surprised at how much trouble I actually had in wording my question. So if clarification is needed, I'll do my best.

Since English is not your native language, I think it's reasonable to assume you're not from the US. If you're from one of the many countries like Saudi Arabia, etc., where women literally do not have equal rights, then please don't assume anything we're saying about feminism (in this thread and elsewhere) applies to your country. Most of the time, we're talking about the US, Canada, UK, Australia, and various western-European countries (i.e. "the west"). I consider myself to generally be an anti-feminist, but in theocracies/etc., women usually are clearly oppressed relative to men...and for those countries, I'm very much pro-feminist (for the reasons outlined above).

If anyone is wondering why I'm asking this, it's because I've noticed that this movement seems to have a lot of issues with the feminist movement, but I'm having trouble pinpointing what exactly your issues with feminism is.

There's a complicated history between the MRM and feminism. Honestly, I'm tired and don't feel like I could really do it justice if I tried to explain it all properly. So, instead, I'll just explain where I'm coming from. Before anything else, I'm a "skeptic". What that means is I try not to just accept claims because they feel good...instead I try to look at what is supported by evidence and rational argument. This has led me to seriously reconsider A LOT of positions I had taken for granted (not the least of which being religion).

Anyway, I had always considered myself a "feminist" because I believed in equality, was raised around a bunch of strong women (none of which tried to push it on me, but it was just generally viewed as vaguely positive), and the idea that feminism = equality was constantly repeated by the media/etc. growing up...so I took it for granted. Well, in college, it was a requirement that we either take a Womens' Studies course, or a course on Critical Race Theory. So I took the WS course filled with good intentions.

After a few classes, the prof directed us to some section in the textbook proclaiming that Viagra was proof that pharmaceutical companies put more money and effort into researching treatments for male issues (like erectile-dysfunction). I had actually met some of the guys who discovered Viagra, and knew this to be untrue. The fact is, Viagra was originally being researched as a treatment for a heart-condition which affects both men and women...erections were simply a side effect that turned out to be HIGHLY marketable.

I didn't make a stink in front of everyone, because I didn't want to be "that guy". Instead, I waited until class was over and approached the prof quietly with my concerns. She immediately dismissed them and said something to the effect of "well, it doesn't matter because they still put more money into male issues". I could see that she knew it was wrong and that she was just grasping at straws, and I realized it wasn't worth arguing with her (mostly because it would negatively effect my grade), so I just said "okay" and walked away. During the next class she didn't correct it, or anything.

Shortly thereafter she went out on maternity leave and left the class to her ill-prepared TA. The TA simply gave us the answers to the tests/quizzes immediately before the tests via powerpoint presentation, and we got A's on everything. During the final exam, the prof returned...with her crying baby. She proceeded to breastfeed the child in front of the class while we were taking our final exams. I got the impression that she was doing this in the hopes that someone would say something...so she could sue or whatever...who knows. Anyway, that class...that obvious attempt at indoctrination...set off my "skeptic alarms" and led me to view feminism a bit differently.

A few years later, I discovered the MRM...which contained many other people critical of feminism, and feminist claims...and I started researching even deeper. What I found while researching feminism was a lot of underhanded and manipulative political tactics, horribly flawed advocacy research replete with fabricate evidence, and contrived rationalizations...all seemingly designed to reinforce the belief that men are oppressing women. I also found a lot of well-meaning people labeled "sexist"/etc. for criticizing feminist dogma (some even harassed and threatened with violence), a great deal of evidence contradicting many fundamental feminist beliefs/assertions, some seriously disturbing anti-male rhetoric (much of it violent), a great deal of anti-intellectualism, and a whole slew of other problematic shit.

So, that is why I became an antifeminist. I don't hate women. I don't oppose equal rights. I respect men and women, I believe in equal rights and opportunities, and I oppose feminism. It doesn't stem from a lack of knowledge about feminism...in fact, it stems from just the opposite.

This ended up getting much longer than I originally intended...sorry.

Fundieathiest · 2012-11-04T23:15:22+00:00

The wage gap and the glass ceiling come to mind. Its funny how many feminists continue to spout the "77 cents for every dollar a man makes" line, even after that's been completely debunked. I don't think feminists grasp the concept that you can't advance your cause by lying and fighting battles that don't really exist, or have already been won.

It's like saying that you're going to fight against racism by banning slavery in the southern US.

ErasmusMRA · 2012-11-04T23:15:41+00:00

If anyone is wondering why I'm asking this, it's because I've noticed that this movement seems to have a lot of issues with the feminist movement, but I'm having trouble pinpointing what exactly your issues with feminism is.

Feminism stopped being about equality in the 1960s and is now about female supremacy and blames all of the world's problems on half of the population.

hardwarequestions · 2012-11-04T23:47:45+00:00

I think we first need to establish something...what country are you from? It's important to know because that may be the biggest source of confusion since many of us hold our views towards feminism in a near-exclusive first world context. Otlutside of that context, things are very different and "feminism" can be much more legitimate.

2012-11-04T23:28:30+00:00

1) the wage gap 2) rape, domestic violence etc.

1 because it's been proven false or at best misleading multiple times. 2 because men are victims as well, and I don't give a damn about the gender of either the perps or the victims as both genders deserve assistance (for victims) and punishment (for perps).

philosoraptor1000 · 2012-11-04T23:18:50+00:00

I, of course, cant speak for ALL of the 'Mens Rights' group, but I can start it off by listing an issue that feminists bring up that is really a non-issue.

The big one is "equal pay for equal work". They are always harping on the fact that "women make $0.75 for every $1 that a man makes". While this statistic is technically true, its also very misleading. It takes a global average of EVERY male worker in the US and EVERY female worker in the US.... with no regard taken for years of experience, the type of job the person is in, etc.

When apples are compared to apples, men and women actually do make the same pay for the same work. Its a non-issue.

My hypothesis is that when the feminist movement started harping on women being equals in the workplace, they had this notion or idea of what equality would be like. In reality, they've achieved equality. Mission accomplished. The problem is that their version or vision of equality doesnt match realitys version of equality. Instead of realizing this and thinking to themselves "well, I guess our idea of equality was wrong, but at least we're there.", they've instead held on to their delusional view of what equality is and continue to insist that they are not being treated as equals.

rightsbot · 2012-11-04T23:12:19+00:00

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EpicJ · 2012-11-04T23:15:38+00:00

There is some articles in the sidebar that might answer your question

half-human · 2012-11-05T09:04:17+00:00

I'm guessing you're calling yourself a "feminist" because you've been schooled in progressive circles to believe that's just a natural, good thing to be. I've been there, I'm politically left, and I'm highly supportive of women's issues, and believe there are things like reproductive rights that are in fact under constant attack.

However, feminist discourse is poisoned with dogma. It isn't hard to see. If you're a feminist, presumably you've read some feminist literature. Pick some up, leaf through it. Feminist writers presume complete understanding of the male psyche. You will inevitably find self-assured statements about what men think. (And yet, men are the ones who supposedly "mansplain," while feminist writers do long-winded uncomplimentary armchair psychoanalysis of some imagined abstract male foe.)

You can never question or correct pop-cultural "facts" about gender relationships, or you are a misogynist or trivializing women's issues. Classics here include "Women earn 70 cents on the dollar for doing the same job." The idea is to cobble together as many disparate facts and non-facts in such a way as to make the situation look as desperate and inequitable as possible.

Also, women's health spending, mentioned in other posts. Spending on women's health consistently outpaces men's. It's not even close to a contest. So, if spending is to be increased on women's health (not something I oppose), that's a women's issue, not a feminist issue, if feminism is supposed to be concerned with equality or alleviating oppression. Women passed equal in this domain long, long ago. Now they're just doing victory laps.

Consider Gardasil, the HPV vaccine. It was pitched as a cervical cancer vaccine, because that's a better draw than genital warts. Some right-wing politicians said gross things about it, because they are sexist assholes and have fucked up ideas about how to "protect women" (in this case from themselves and their sexuality). End of story, women are oppressed, right? Not quite. Women got the vaccine. Wait, men get HPV too, right? Everything we know about viral biochemistry should lead us to believe it will work just as well on men. Yet men don't get the vaccine, not until someone realizes that it's also a women's health issue, since men can give HPV to women! Once that notion enters the debate, then and only then do people consider vaccinating boys. Not "We can prevent these boys from getting HPV and penile cancer!" but "We can make sure the boys won't infect the girls!" The male life is consistently considered of lesser value than the female. People bring examples to this subreddit all the time. Yet feminist rhetoric assumes, a priori, that women are disadvantaged in all situations, so it is easy to find claims that "patriarchy" (all society) devalues female life.

Human Genital Mutilation: This issue has been co-opted as a gendered issue rather than a human rights issue. I can't speak to the relative frequency of male vs. female genital mutilation worldwide, and I'm not sure such a statistic is easily gathered. However, it's an anthropological fact that genital mutilation rituals cover a range of severity from quite minor to horrific disfigurement for both genders worldwide. Feminism blames this on patriarchy, despite the observation that wherever this occurs, it is invariably enforced by people of both genders.

Take it a step further and notice that routine minor-to-moderate male genital mutilation (circumcision) is common in the U.S., and severe, criminal male genital mutilation is celebrated! (Lorena Bobbit, among others, receive a slap on the wrist and are hailed as celebrities.) Imagine for a moment, a man in the U.S. sews his cheating wife's vagina shut. He'd be considered a psychopathic monster. We'd know him by first middle and last name, his story would be featured on documentaries about violent criminals, and he'd be locked up for a long, long, long time.

Men are considered legitimate targets for violence by society, so violence against men is rendered invisible or comical. Feminist rhetoric actually claims that society is defined by a climate of violence against women. This violence does happen. I grew up with domestic violence, and I have female friends and family who have been victims of rape. It's a despicable thing. But that's the thing. We all understand and accept that it's a despicable thing. Violence against women exists in our culture, but our culture hates it. Feminist thought claims that society sanctions this violence, when in fact it is anti-male violence that is systematically accepted, condoned, and often encouraged.

Micro-Aggressions: Coming along with this notion of an omnipresent oppressive "patriarchy" is the idea that the gendered content of our day-to-day conversations if unidirectionally degrading and oppressive to women. A "pussy" is weak, "balls" denote strength, and numerous others you can find on twitter feeds like @everydaysexism and the like. However, we also find many pervasive and degrading stereotypes about male character. Feminist thought requires that we compartmentalize these two, because patriarchy must favor men, so only microaggressions directed at women are of concern. I believe that crassly appealing to gender stereotypes is an abysmally low form of discourse and that we as humans can do a lot better.

I firmly believe that feminism was an important movement in its early days especially, and men's rights owes a fair deal to feminism historically and theoretically. However, moderate feminists consistently fail to disavow extreme viewpoints of their peers, and will instead often gradually incorporate them into their theoretical basis. Furthermore, whenever men attempt to address something that affects them specifically, feminists interpret it as an attack on women.

I think it is not surprising that reactionaries to feminism call them "ugly bitches who can't get a man" and "man haters" while contemporary men's rights activists are called "ugly losers who can't laid" and "misogynists."

Nepene · 2012-11-04T23:25:30+00:00

Not issues. As in, they were good and are fine.

Women voting. Women being free to work wherever. Women having the right to have abortions/contraceptives Rape kits, good police practise. Domestic violence centres. Property rights

Issues. Domestic violence centres denying abused men access Various laws that criminalize male violence but not female violence such as VAWA. Schools teaching men they are weak and bad and that women are awesome and removing male role models from books. Shaming of women who like being housewives. Forcing their way into boy's clubs while continuing to force men out of girl's clubs. Promoting violence against men i.e. society for cutting up males. Divorce laws heavily biased towards women. Children given to women after divorce almost always. Social negation of women's crimes i.e. supporting female murderers.

I presume since you're not english in your country feminism doesn't have such ambitious goals and is much nicer.

EvilPundit · 2012-11-04T23:35:32+00:00

Very simply: Feminism advocates in favour of women's rights, and against men's rights. If men want equal rights, we have to fight feminism to get them.

ManualForMen · 2012-11-05T00:02:13+00:00

This movement has a lot of issues with feminism because feminism's goal is not liberté, égalité, fraternité or whatever is the slogan and issue of the hour. The goal of feminism is trivial -- money and power, gaining new rights, keeping old privileges and getting rid of any responsibilities. The adjustment of economy and to distribute greater share of resources those who live without a man. The increase of their share can only come at the expense of the men's, normal women's and children's share.

friestogo · 2012-11-05T00:28:35+00:00

Personally I am very much troubled by the ideology, that sadly is quite widespread now, that if a girl consents to any sort of sexual contact whilst drunk, then it is considered rape. I think it's more prominent in the U.S., since there are specific laws in some states that basically say that sex with a drunk girl is rape.

It troubles me for a couple reasons. One, it is extremely common to regret things you've done when you're drunk, especially sex, and it inevitably leads to false rape accusations. Two, most of the time I imagine both parties are drunk and thus it implies that only men can be rapists and women can be victims.

yopp343 · 2012-11-05T04:33:20+00:00

My issue with feminism is that many feminists lie, aren't open minded about any differing opinions (dogmatic in other words) and flip between playing victims in certain situations while being bullies in others when its fits the situation.

But my biggest issue is with feminism is that nobody seems to call them out. I don't like right wing conservatives either but I take solace in the fact there's always a lot of people willing to call out their BS.

Feminism seems to be protected by this liberal narrative that all these various groups have been/currently are oppressed, and so they're all right and as a man (especially if you're white and hetero) you are wrong.

As a result even obvious non-truths they state are not challenged by anyone other than a very small minority of people: MRA's. And these MRA's are marginalized like Galileo arguing the Earth revolves around the Sun.

That's what makes me most angry about feminism. They are enemies of logic and reason, they ridicule because they are afraid to have a honest debate, and the people in the middle just let them get away with it because it wouldn't be PC to say anything contrary about what they say. Evil cloaked under good intentions basically. It's a horrible irony, people trying to correct previous wrongs, just giving birth to a new wrong.

OThomson · 2012-11-05T05:33:47+00:00

This again, can someone copy/paste and send this one on their way.... same shit 3 times every day 'Hey i'm a Feminist (and thus invested in their way of thinking) i want to know where you disagree with us so i can deny you have valid disagreements and continue thinking the way i do) i mean fuck really? why do we keep wasting time with people who come here with a point of view diametrically opposed to ours and indulge them in trying to convince them to change their stupid minds.

ghebert001 · 2012-11-05T00:36:04+00:00

I'm not going to point out any single issue but rather the whole idea behind feminism...that it's about equality. Equality is not an issue for feminism the same way the law isn't an issue for some ambassador from overseas in the US with diplomatic immunity. When the deck is stacked in your favour...you don't need to worry about playing by the rules or worrying whether or not you're going to get a good hand.

Even some of the things that are real issues get over-exaggerated, stats are cooked up, men are completely left out when said issue affects them either a little or more than women.

I don't know where you're from, but in western culture, feminism has nothing to do with equality...it's just women fighting to get as much special treatment as possible and making men carry any burden that results from getting said special treatment.

carchamp1 · 2012-11-05T01:23:04+00:00

There are years and years worth of posts in this subreddit as well as links and reading suggestions that directly address your question. Give yourself a few weeks of paging through "men's rights" to really learn how we feel.

Pecanpig · 2012-11-05T07:56:26+00:00

I don't think feminism addresses any important issues, not on a relative scale that is.

The feminist movement in English speaking nations is more of a cult, they can be found openly supporting all kinds of things from violence against men, to abusing newborn baby's to lying about statistics to gain legal supremacy.

Title	Question from a feminist, part 1.
Author	Fundieathiest
Upvotes	8
Comments	33
Date	November 4, 2012 11:10 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/12mvt0/question_from_a_feminist_part_1/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/question-from-a-feminist-part-1.1009905 https://theredarchive.com/post/1009905

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