Question on feminist perspective on objectification and harassment

Egalitarianwhistle · 2020-04-07T04:58:13+00:00

When I've heard the argument that it is unhealthy for young girls to constantly see women's body's sexualized, that actually makes sense to me.

So I actually tend to agree with the OP. As an MRA, I think my counterpoint is that it is equally unhealthy for young boys to hear that #allmenaretrash and #killallmen, and pretty much the river of misandry pouring out of universities today. I don't think that is healthy for young men. Is it any wonder they are doing so poorly in school and the suicide rate is so high? Even the framing of some masculinity as "toxic" can be quite harmful if there isn't a stronger and clearer definition of how masculinity can be positive.

And I've often been told, well that is just one random person on the internet but it can be disheartening to see 5,000 upvotes or likes or whatever. The truth is men are fragile. All living creatures are fragile. Here's a great anecdote included in a blog about this very topic:

(sigh) Here’s the thing: I spent my formative years—basically, from the age of 12 until my mid-20s—feeling not “entitled,” not “privileged,” but terrified. I was terrified that one of my female classmates would somehow find out that I sexually desired her, and that the instant she did, I would be scorned, laughed at, called a creep and a weirdo, maybe even expelled from school or sent to prison. You can call that my personal psychological problem if you want, but it was strongly reinforced by everything I picked up from my environment: to take one example, the sexual-assault prevention workshops we had to attend regularly as undergrads, with their endless lists of all the forms of human interaction that “might be” sexual harassment or assault, and their refusal, ever, to specify anything that definitely wouldn’t be sexual harassment or assault. I left each of those workshops with enough fresh paranoia and self-hatred to last me through another year.

My recurring fantasy, through this period, was to have been born a woman, or a gay man, or best of all, completely asexual, so that I could simply devote my life to math, like my hero Paul Erdös did. Anything, really, other than the curse of having been born a heterosexual male, which for me, meant being consumed by desires that one couldn’t act on or even admit without running the risk of becoming an objectifier or a stalker or a harasser or some other creature of the darkness.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/

I am against sexism for men and women.

Can you clarify what you mean by ...

"Taken advantage of according to their appearance?"

MistaKPJ · 2020-04-07T04:32:20+00:00

However the only things I still consider a problem in western cultural values in terms of women's equality is the sexual objectification and harassment of women. Is it not true that women are still taken advantage of according their appearance?

Are women taken advantage of? Yes, there's people who will purposely take advantage of a woman. There's lots of ways a woman can be taken advantage of just like anyone.

I don't quit understand your whole question. What do you mean by taken advantage of according to their appearance? Do you mean by their clothing? Physical features? Or ?

fengpi · 2020-04-07T05:05:10+00:00

What is the difference between objectifying someone and admiring someone?

I've never gotten a straight answer to that question. The feminist answer is some variation of "when a man objectifies a woman, there's something evil and impure going on in his mind." Okay, and how do you know the content of someone else's mind? The feminist just knows. Only she can tell you what's really going on in your mind. You're not qualified to say what's in your mind.

At this point, you start to suspect that "objectification" is simply the feminist way of saying "dirty sinful thoughts."

Most conveniently of all, feminists concede that it is possible for a woman to objectify a man, but no harm is done at all when that happens! Hee hee!

Keenin455 · 2020-04-07T04:35:33+00:00

However the only things I still consider a problem in western cultural values in terms of women's equality is the sexual objectification and harassment of women. Is it not true that women are still taken advantage of according their appearance?

Yes, it's still an issue.

But it's not solely women who are objectified and taken advantage of.

Listen to women talk about their male fantasy figures and all those veril, handsome male celebrities. Just as lurid and raunchy as any locker room talk.

Women aren't also above copping a feel, grabbing men and fondling them every chance they get when they're irresistibly sexy to them. Teenage girls' raging hormones aren't exactly dormant either and tend to erupt around hunky boys and men. No shrinking violets.

I tell you this because this is a universal issue. And unfortunately, part of being human.

We objectify people even when denying it. Someone's going to be reduced to their physical characteristics or a personality quirk.

But you know what you demonstrated in your post that Men's Rights Advocates are fighting tooth and nail to address? When something happens to women, it's an issue. When it happens to men in equal numbers, crickets.

No offense but it's pretty hypocritical of you.

SwordoftheRevelation · 2020-04-07T07:33:23+00:00

Sure. No one should have to feel like they're just someone else's play thing or that they're only worth something if they're pretty, but I'd argue that it's less of a feminist issue and more of a unisex issue. We talk all the time about how women are objectified and sexualized, but that's more of an issue with the way that we cover the issue. Which is to say that we ignore the men going through the same things and only talk about the women. We talk about how women are expected to put on makeup and get boob jobs to make themselves into barbies, but most men really don't care about makeup and think it's stupid or just appreciate makeup when it IS worn because it shows their partner put some effort into their appearance for them and most men would rather have the real deal rather than silicone anyways so I think it's less about all men liking a certain thing and more about certain very vocal men liking a certain thing and women having it beaten into their heads that that's how all men like things instead of just having a conversation with the men they find desirable to see what THOSE men like.

It's also a major issue that a lot of men do the same thing and just assume that women won't like them unless they have a chiseled jaw, a 16 pack of abs, and are at least 6 feet tall. Yes, SOME women are very vocal about the fact that they think that particular group of men is sexy as hell, but that's not all women and it's unfair for men to assume that's representative of the majority of women just like it's unfair for most women to think most men want barbie in their bed. In general people just need to quit focusing on the news and social media so much and have some real conversations with real people before their heads explode in frustration with the world.

Men live in a world where they can't report women sexually harassing them and be taken seriously. Women live in a world where they're constantly trying to be attractive and then they're getting cat calls and being made to feel unsafe. Men live in a world where if they're sexually assaulted it means they were weak, or they enjoyed it, or they're simply not believed. Women live in a world where they're constantly reminded that they're easier to take advantage of and where they're told on a regular basis by some of the same people who claim to have their best interests at heart that they're incredibly likely to be raped before they even turn 18 and then they get to live with that fear.

To say that the issues surrounding sex and sexual assault on both sides of the fence are numerous would be an understatement. And unfortunately, each attempt to fix these issues has left only MORE issues for both groups to deal with.

Sorry if that was too long. I guess TL;RD the grass is shitty on both sides of the fence?

NotherThrowaway284 · 2020-04-07T17:32:53+00:00

Off-hand I do not remember the source url for this, but in a British newspaper about two years ago they reported on sexual objectification in the media and reported the (to them) "shocking" finding that today men are far more objectified than women, especially because all the angry feminists scream to the rafters any time a woman is objectified, but only leer and snicker when a man is.

Feminist "theorists" routinely, with the greatest of moral laziness and narcissism, insist about male objectification in the media, "That's different!" Demand they say something meaningful about how and you can watch them really mentally shut down amidst their unshakeable conviction that you "just don't get it."

Welcome to r/mensrights.

TigPlaze · 2020-04-07T15:36:10+00:00

Men are attracted to young and shapely women. That's part of biology and cannot be changed without millions more years of additional evolution. It makes some women more desirable as mates than others. In short, some women are beautiful and some are not. That's the truth that feminists don't want to face. They hate the truth, but that's absolutely how it is. This is not my problem. I'm only reporting the truth, the same as I would if I reported that Saturn has rings. The feminists who have a problem with the way human sexuality works should take it up with Mother Nature, or God, or whatever they believe. Men didn't make it this way. Men could not change whom they're attracted to if they wanted to. Feminists should quit hating on men for the way things are when the situation is as involuntary for us as it is for women. There is no such thing as "objectification." That's just a smear word invented by feminists for blaming human biology on men. No man wants an obese woman. Some men might live with that situation, but it's only because he knows his sexual market value is low and thus he can't do better. If he were a rich rock star, he would be with gorgeous, shapely young women. It's just the way it is. You'll feel better if you just accept that reality and adapt to it.

Title	Question on feminist perspective on objectification and harassment
Author	stestuff
Upvotes	10
Comments	41
Date	April 7, 2020 4:14 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/fwdu0y/question_on_feminist_perspective_on/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/question-on-feminist-perspective-on.855415 https://theredarchive.com/post/855415

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