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Rape is bad?

DrEuthanasia

June 6, 2016
89 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://imgur.com/ZQ5KwK2
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Post Information
Title Rape is bad?
Author

DrEuthanasia

Upvotes 89
Comments 60
Date June 6, 2016 9:54 AM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4ms73q/rape_is_bad/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/rape-is-bad.948062
https://theredarchive.com/post/948062
Top posts by DrEuthanasia

Was reading Reflections on the Revolution in France and thought this passage seemed relevant to today's climate.

0 upvotes
October 27, 2016
/r/MensRights

Comments

[–]DrEuthanasia[S] 25 points26 points27 points 10 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

What this person did is obviously horrible. Rape is never justified, and people need to realise this is true in all cases. People like this make tackling the issue of rape that much harder.

[–]BelievesInGod 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

unfortunately a lot of those comments are made because of underlying issues or things that have happened to them or people they know (in relation to), and they just venting, its not right but its human nature to take it out on things like that.

[–]all-round-good-egg 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

He didn't rape anybody.

I can think of a lot more horrible crimes than fingering somebody while you are both drunk and one of you happens to pass out. I prefer to save my outrage for actual dangerous predators or people who condone that behaviour and not stupid college kids who are getting demonized in the press for a drunken fumble (that he was given explicit consent for before they left the party) gone wrong.

[–]davidcolvert 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Once someone is unconscious it's rape.

[–]all-round-good-egg 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No. He was not charged with rape or convicted with rape. Please read the various stories on the case rather than the incendiary headlines.

[–]mwobuddy 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Which is why women who wake guys up with a blowjob are always, always, committing sexual assault. Even if the guy liked it.

[–]davidcolvert 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Context is important. There are levels of implied consent in relationships; these two were not in a relationship.

[–]mwobuddy 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There are levels of implied consent in relationships

No such thing. See Spouse rape.

[–]cottonthread 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think what they were trying to say is that people in (normal) relationships have often discussed things like this beforehand and have said they are fine with it. They will also be much more aware of eachothers preferences, body language etc so intiating without asking first is much less likely to lead to something unwanted.

The rape part comes in as soon as one person says "no" and is ignored or if the partner does something like drug them in order to stop them saying no.

[–]all-round-good-egg -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

There was explicit verbal consent given in this case to finger her. It looks like they were both very drunk and tired and she fell asleep during the drunken fumble whilst he was seriously assaulted by two passing strangers who apparently had an ask questions later policy. The fact that he ran away from the assailants is being used against him.

[–]davidcolvert 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Where is your source for her giving consent?

[–]Diablos_lawyer 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The letter she wrote to him talks a bit about the trial and she mentions he said that she had given consent to being fingered. He didn't say this when he was first arrested, he only brought it up a year later in court. The defence lawyers used the fact she couldn't remember to try and drive his version of events as the truth.

Regardless, he was found guilty of three counts of sexual assault. So according to the court of law she didn't or couldn't give consent.

[–]RobDog101 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

What was the deal about her waking up in a hospital?

EDIT: Okay well I think the pine needles part is what's fucked up. Dude's obviously deranged. I can understand it they were both drunk, she consented and then passed out and he was still fingering her. Believe me, things just like that have happened to me; I do not feel bad about them, I enjoyed what I remembered of them, I know they were consensual even in the case where I can't remember how it started, and I accept responsibility for them and know what not to do if I want to avoid those situations again.

But he put pine needles and dirt in her? That's just fucking wrong.

[–]all-round-good-egg -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

She fell asleep after contact was initiated with an inexperienced young drunk guy who couldn't tell the difference between heavy breathing whilst aroused and heavy breathing whilst asleep? There are a lot of explanations in between her pursuing him and falling asleep mid fumble to him being some kind of sexual predator somehow deserving of life imprisonment without parole. It's pretty awful that so many people are just going with the worst case scenario like a bunch of puritanical witch prickers who have never touched a women or man whilst drunk at a party in their lives.

Remember the context of this is people baying for blood/time with regards to the sentence and wanting him raped!! Is having your wrist broken by two angry Swedes followed by a lengthy trial process, 6 months in a jail full of frightening criminals who might actually rape or attack him at any time, a ruined career, lifelong signing as a sexual predator and being branded a rapist who never actually raped anybody not enough?

[–]RobDog101 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, I don't think he should necessarily get a harsher punishment. I just don't think other people (okay, men) should just because they don't have as much money.

[–]davidcolvert -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

She said "hey, you can finger me"?

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Correct, unless there was prior agreement.
In an unconsented morning blowjob the woman accepts the risk that she will be prosecuted for sexual assault or rape, depending on the jurisdiction. She puts her fate in the man's hands.

It is the same with drunk sex. The initiator accepts the risk that the other party will later prosecute them for rape.

I don't see a problem with that. If you are not completely confident that she will not later feel raped then you should not be proceeding. It should not take the possibility of prosecution to stop people from taking a risk of such grievous harm to someone.

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Correct, unless there was prior agreement.

Actually, that is not true. The moment you are unconscious, you cannot give or revoke consent, so you are considered to be a victim of rape if anyone does anything to you while sleeping, even if you agreed to it. Whether you prosecute them for it or not is a different matter.

Im surprised there's not more histrionic women taking advantage of this. Tell a boyfriend she would enjoy being fucked while asleep, and then waking up to him doing it and file a report.

You cannot give prior consent to an act, because the consent, as it were, must be "ongoing". To be "ongoing", you must be able to say no at any point the action is occurring. If you receive a blowjob and are woken up by it, or if you are penetrated and woken up by that, even if you agreed to it beforehand, the fact that it occurred while you were incapable of granting consent in the moment rules it as rape.

Read "Incapacitated". Sleep is incapacitated just like passed out drunk. Anything done to someone sexually while they are incapacitated is sexual assault or rape.

Consent for sex is a variety of contract law. Contract for sexual contact is a ridiculous idea.

[–]JebberJabber 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

That is why I never took up my GF's suggestion to try sex when she was sleeping, I was worried she would wake up scared.
I wasn't worried about it being reported, it seems weird that you don't understand why women don't do that. Why would they? I don't know whether you are right about the legal situation, I've seen legal examples where prior consent was given and there was no sign of it being withdrawn so consent was held to be present. That was in the UK though.

Legal liability has never even flicked through my mind for a second in my long life. In hindsight, knowing all I do about false rape accusations and feminism and the unreliability of memory, I still can't think of a time I was at risk. But it is easier for me than some other guys because I usually let the woman take the lead in initiating sex and I don't like mixing sex and drinking, certainly not with a newish partner. And I like to know people fairly well before getting into sex.

Why do you think consent came from contract law?

[–]mwobuddy -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Getting scared should never be a reason not to do something. In an ideal world, where you couldn't get charged with rape, it might scare her, and it might be misunderstanding, and you both move on because its like walking through a door someone was behind and noticing them.

The problem is people's attachment to sexuality as something at once both highly elevated in stature and also as debased a human nature as possible.

Not only has someone stolen something super precious from you, but you've also been given something in return. A taint. A defilement. That is literally what rape laws say re: age of consent, fyi. "Defiling or inducing a minor to carnal, lewd knowledge". E.g. sexuality is BAD. But somehow its also good, right, and celebrated.

There's a term for it called cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, such acts are fine for those who participate by the legal standard of capability to consent to such participation. On the other hand, it is lewd, it is defiling, and it is 'nasty business'.

That's why so many girls regret losing their virginity the first time when it was "a mistake". The first time will always be a mistake when memories are proven unreliable, as you rewrite your own life narrative in your head constantly, to fit who you have become and the values you've taken on. The first time is always a mistake because when you're young a relationship rarely lasts as it was built around sexual attraction and not around actual love.

Why is it a 'mistake' then, to lose your mythical 'virginity'? Consider the fact that virginity is related to biblical ideals. Were you a food virgin before your first mouth of canned baby food? Again it relates to sex as being at once both elevated and debased, as if sex was like eating, it would never have gained the idea of 'virginity' to begin with.

So people like with their cognitive dissonance of sex and then feel damaged even when they consent to it and regret it later, because of that cognitive dissonance. Of course rape is going to be traumatic and socially considered abhorrent when it is laid on top of the foundations of mental illness regarding sexuality. If we dispensed with people as valuable for sex, and dispensed with the diseased counter messages around sex, the damage from rape might be a lot less. People might also rape a lot less as well.

[–]JebberJabber 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[Edited to remove reference to rape] The ability to consent is usually lost well before the victim gets all the way to unconsciousness.

In the UK this was established in the landmark Bree case, I imagine the US will have corresponding cases.

I've seen security camera video showing a woman walking confidently in 3" heels, who was judged not capable of consent in the UK.

[–]all-round-good-egg 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No, in the UK rape is defined as penetration of vagina, anus or mouth with a PENIS. There was no such penetration in this case so he was not charged with rape, nor convicted of rape. ie, he is not a rapist.

Please read the details of the story and not random headlines.

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

My point was about drunken consent so I have removed the reference to rape. I cited UK law on drunken consent because I know it and have heard the US is mostly similar in that aspect.

In California rape is "sexual intercourse" which seems to mean PIV, given that there are separate offenses for oral and anal invasions. So you are right, it was not rape in the California legal sense (unless humping through clothes was taken to involve "penetration, no matter how slight").

Other states have different laws. But anyway, large numbers of people have read the details (and the viral 16 page witness statement - when is the last time you heard of something that long going viral?) and after that, they are using the colloquial word "rape" to express what happened. I am too, though in my country legal rape is also limited to PIV.

If you want to understand why so many people choose to write "rape" despite this case being outside the legal definition, read the victim impact statement:

VIS in HTML on Buzzfeed

VIS in PDF on SCCgov

[–]davidcolvert 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Could you provide a source for this "explicit consent"?

[–]windkirby 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I keep reading different articles and I can't find anywhere what everyone's different testimonies were, just the results of the trial. If anyone has further info, I would appreciate reading it. I'm interested in exactly what happened that is causing all of this controversy.

[–]The_Powers_That_B1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, he is accused of fingering a girl behind a dumpster that he was drinking with moments earlier. Both were incredibly drunk. He left to pee, came back, and began fingering her again. She passed out during that time, and he didn't realize. He stopped after a few minutes when he realized she was. Nothing else happened.

Now that's not great, but that sure as fuck isn't the brutal rape people are making it out to be. Sexual assault and rape are two different things, but people like to pretend they're the same thing when it fits their narrative.

[–]Lucius_Martius 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I thought this 'eye for an eye' mentality was pretty normal in the USA, just like in most other third world juntas that still implement the death penalty.

"Hey, he murdered/raped someone, murder/rape is wrong so let's murder/rape him for the justice!"

[+]SleepDeprivedPegasus 10 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I can't find anyone who can show me the facts of this case. I see alot of pitchforks over the letter but don't know what actually happened. If she has no recollection of the event, how do we know it was assault? If she was on top and he passed out there would be no outrage.

[–]cottonthread 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If she was on top and he passed out there would be no outrage.

Pretty sure people would still be pissed. She was drunk to the point she passed out and people consider that too impaired to make sound judgment. It's somehow "different" if the man is drunk though - probably because people think men are up for sex way more than women are.

[–]Stephen_Morgan 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"back of the bus"!

Yeah, if he was a woman I'm sure he would have been treated much more harshly.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This really isn't that bad. Like if someone murdered your friend you might want them dead. It's just people giving emotional responses because they're angry, and it's the eye for an eye mindset. This really doesn't need to be worked up over.

[–]WhiteThrone 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Remember, Rape is the most horrendous thing that can happen to a woman.

OTOH, men who go to prison DESERVE to be raped.

Hypocrisy, much ?

[–]ziekktx 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Sorry, deleted.

[–]JebberJabber 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

For rhetorical purposes it might be good to refer to prison rape as "corrective rape", because women are already primed to regard this as horrible.

[–]cottonthread 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The difference is that the woman being raped is generally presumed innocent whereas the man in prison 'deserves' it. It's not uncommon to wish bad things on bad people, especially crimes of a similar nature to those they committed- you see that on this sub too for stories when a woman does something bad and there are often a few people wishing harm on her.

I'd say this is more a symptom of a different problem where it is assumed that everyone in jail is there for a terrible irredeemable reason and that that excludes prisoners from having the same basic rights and comforts the rest of us do. Where we assume that prison should be purely for punishment and not rehabilitation.

[–]herknav -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

These folks are just (inaccurately) advocating eye-for-an-eye; nothing special about the crime being rape. You could claim hypocrisy in the same way anytime eye-for-an-eye is advocated.

I say 'inaccurately' because there's a significant difference between 'fingered while passed out' and 'forcibly sodomized'

[–]Adanu0 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

If you ever wanted more evidence of actual rape culture, you need not look any further than this screenshot.

[+]VodkaKitty 10 years ago* [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

I'd actually say the same about this thread. There are several men here supporting this man and saying that what he did was not sexual assault, all upvoted. If you want to see rape culture at its finest, just check out this subreddit.

[–]Adanu0 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Nice try at trolling.

[–]VodkaKitty 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

It's not trolling. You can look at the responses here yourself.

[–]Adanu0 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

You'll need to show me specifically where you're getting this idea. Sources please.

[–]VodkaKitty 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

It's at +1 now, but it was at around +8 earlier.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4ms73q/rape_is_bad/d3y5rh5

[–]Adanu0 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

By the logic given, I don't consider that rape either. If you want to go to that point, you might as well call all drunk sex rape.

This in no way constitutes a sign of rape culture... if you actually think that, I'd suggest you to back to the SJW echo chambers where that level of denseness is encouraged.

[–]VodkaKitty 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

So to be clear, you don't think that a man forcibly fingering an unconscious woman and shoving dirt and pine needles in her vagina to be rape?

[–]Adanu0 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

I think that the 'affirmative consent' bullshit you're obviously pushing will be another nail in the coffin of gender relations in this country, and that it belongs in the SJW echo chambers that want to consider all men potential rapists.

I haven't seen a single thing about shoving dirt and pine needles anywhere, where was this shown? That sounds fairly fetishy to me.

[–]VodkaKitty 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Maybe read any article on the subject before talking about something you know nothing about?

Also, you're not really doing a good job about trying to dispel the idea that all men are rapists, considering you think it's okay to sexually assault an unconscious woman. If you want to see rape culture, just look at your own posts.

It's kind of scary to see how many men out there will defend sexual assault.

[–]Adanu01 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I was given context that she was awake, then went unconscious during. I admit I haven't read any articles on this subject. Was she unconscious from the start confirmed?

[–]VodkaKitty2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

...Are you trolling right now?

You literally haven't read a single article on the subject, not one, and yet you're talking about what happened as if you actually know what you're talking about, instead of just admitting that you've pulled every single word you've just said out of your ass?

Wow. Just wow.

[–]Adanu02 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So, you'd rather insult and attack me instead of educating me on what happened, since I was given a specific context for this that conflicts with your version of what happened.

If you want me to give a fuck about what you think, I suggest you stop using the fucklng SJW playbook and actually answer the fucking question.

[–]VodkaKitty1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not mad that you didn't know what happened. I'm confused as to how on earth you thought it was appropriate to defend a convicted sex offender, assume that the victim is a liar, and post about how it wasn't really rape without reading a single article on the subject. It's your responsibility to educate yourself on a topic before spewing complete and total lies about how "it's not sexual assault" "they were both drunk so it's fine" and so forth.

You need to take a long, hard look at yourself and ask yourself why you read that a man was convicted of three counts of sexual assault against a woman, and your first reaction is to defend him. Because that's honestly disgusting. And it's rape culture.

And finally, read the victim's letter to her attacker. Maybe then you'll actually have some sort of context as to what happened.

[–]Adanu01 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In other words, you're not actually answering the question and want to simply attack me for not automatically buying into the cult of rape culture.

I'm done with you, have fun being a giant dick to someone who gives a fuck about your bullshit.

[–]VodkaKitty1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You asked for a source and I gave you one. Why are you complaining?

[–]MassHysterical 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I remember when the NY Post ran a cover on Jared Fogle after he was sentenced saying, "ENJOY A FOOT LONG IN JAIL". Most of many comments online were supportive of the cover. It's a reminder of the ugliness in human nature, the bleakness in society. Prison rape is one of the world's longest running punchlines. It's a ha ha funny joke. Or sometimes it's the sincere wish of people angry over the crimes committed. Great culture we have here. I don't know which is worse.

It's not about Fogle's or anyone else's crimes, it's about how society chooses to punish those crimes. Being part of a culture where rape is the accepted or even anticipated punishment for a crime is depressing.

[–]ThePigmanAgain 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I assume they feel the same way about Amy Schumer...

[–]xeribulos 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

well, this happened in a country that still believes in a biblical (eye for an eye) justice system (read: the death penalty for murderers). it seems only logical to demand rapists shall be raped as well.

it is a totally barbaric way of thinking, of course.

[–]questionnmark1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well at least it only demanded equal punishment. Being in prison and being placed on a sex offenders register is far greater punishment in return. It's like an eye and one arm for an eye.

[–]throw_it_away10284 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

He'd have to be black-out drunk, first, though ... if you want to keep the situations equivalent. Oh, and it was a finger in her vag. So some big dick up his ass, again, is not the same. To be clear - I am not blaming her for getting raped. I am just saying that both things are true. It's not a great idea to drink yourself to 3x the legal limit of alcohol (to the point where you pass out) for a number of reasons...and this is one of them. Of course, he was wrong too.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wait, so rape is horrible, but he's a bad man, so it's totally fine to hope he gets raped? No one would ever get away with saying that about a woman, no matter what she'd done.

[–]NecroDance123 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This kid is a shithead for what he did, but does anyone else agree that the judge shouldn't lose his fucking job over the verdict? Reddit is up in arms over the reappointment and signing petitions to get the judge recalled.

[–]omegaphallic 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

These people are hypocrits.

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