Re: Body positivity

DandDsuckatwriting · 2018-04-18T18:12:57+00:00

The problem with this is just semantics: You are using the words "beauty" and "beautiful" in ways that they just aren't used in normal speech.

"My girlfriend's a beauty."
"Look at him. Isn't he beautiful?"
"This is a beautiful work of art."
"The view from up here is beautiful"

We don't use the words beauty or beautiful to describe 'inner beauty' unless we're describing someone who isn't conventionally beautiful. That's patronizing, insulting, and it conflates inner beauty and outer beauty. They know you only use that word in that way when talking to them. They're unattractive, they're not stupid.

It also implies that the two are interchangable: saying that you can cover a lack of outer beauty with inner beauty also implies that you can cover a lack of inner beauty with outer beauty, which just isn't so. No amount of good looks will make an asshole not an asshole. Character matters more than appearance, so using a word traditionally used for appearance is the wrong approach.

Lastly, loving yourself and finding yourself beautiful aren't the same thing. I know I'm not beautiful, but I sure as hell love myself, and learning to love yourself knowing that you're not physically good looking is important, as it teaches you to not judge others for their looks either.

TL;DR Using the word "beauty" for this is patronizing and counterproductive. You can call them wonderful, amazing, impressive, kind, generous, anything that isn't focused on appearance really.

2717192619192 · 2018-04-19T05:06:06+00:00

Agreed.

I find it odd that a subreddit that constantly talks about male depression and suicide is so flippant about body-positivity. Body dismorphic disorder is a serious condition and affects a lot of men, especially at these times where short men are openly ridiculed, insults like "neckbeard" are thrown around for fun, etc.

If you think telling people that they are beautiful will make them complacent and entitled, you have very poor understanding of human psychology.

pizzagroom · 2018-04-19T04:30:19+00:00

It sounds silly, but it actually hurt to read some of these, especially "You are all handsome in your own way and deserve to love yourself."

Vandechoz · 2018-04-18T19:10:01+00:00

Claiming that beauty is 100% subjective, and that consequently everything is beautiful, makes the entire concept of beauty meaningless. If you're going to believe that sort of claptrap, it makes more sense to just drop the word from your vocabulary than to lie and say that everyone's bodies are perfect.

Matt-ayo · 2018-04-18T19:42:58+00:00

Most people do not understand that beauty is not limited to physical appearance.

It is an aesthetic quality, yes, but it is a deep appreciation of the form of something, and it takes a wise individual to understand forms beyond their literal vision.

All the people opposed to thinking everyone as beautiful cannot grasp well enough an abstract form to appreciate the fact that it can have beauty.

Leinadro · 2018-04-18T18:03:50+00:00

First of all:

Before I say anything, please don't downvote this post immediately based on the topic, insult me, or otherwise be a disrespectful person. This is a discussion platform, and if you do that without trying to engage in this discussion, you are only emulating what many feminists do.

A sarcastic thanks for the good faith. Literally opening your post by passing judgement doesnt do you much good.

...A majority of users on here replied with negativity, saying it's virtue-signalling, and that this statement is stupid and dangerous to young men and the movement for men's rights, and that some people just objectively aren't beautiful.

When and where did this happen? Do you have a link to a post? All you posted was a quote of what you said and your summary of the responses to it.

Thing is I agree with most of what you say but opening with hostility doesnt help your case....unless your goal us to stir up some anger then go to some other forum and complain about how the folks here were so mean to you?

Mr_MRAnarchist · 2018-04-18T17:55:35+00:00

So what's the point of this? You wanted to have a discussion... about what?

bufedad · 2018-04-18T19:21:39+00:00

Here's the thing: beauty and attraction is subjective to a society's standards

They are, but there is also a cultural norm over what is attractive.

This may differ slightly depending on racial/cultural/regional influences, but for the most part, there is little variance in what people find attractive.

Telling someone who has been burned that they are beautiful is disgustingly harmful to that person.

That person knows they are not. Telling them otherwise just hurts them more.

OPTIMUSL1ME · 2018-04-19T03:18:08+00:00

So here's the main issue I have with this line of thinking:

Nobody is really going to say "I like him, but I wish he had 10% more body fat and a little acne." Am I treating my body with love by going to the gym even when I don't want to? Action yes, feeling no. Frankly, I'd rather do anything else. I ate some ice cream recently and it was delicious, I love ice cream.

When I work out I am legitimately trying to change it because it is NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Hate yourself until you love yourself.

AnotherDAM · 2018-04-18T17:56:30+00:00

Hello /r/MensRights. Before I say anything, please don't downvote this post immediately based on the topic, insult me, or otherwise be a disrespectful person. This is a discussion platform, and if you do that without trying to engage in this discussion, you are only emulating what many feminists do.

Gotta love people who come into other folks homes and tell them how to live their lives. Best opening salvo ever.

PowerToAnnihilate · 2018-04-18T18:04:28+00:00

Hello /r/MensRights. Before I say anything, please don't downvote this post immediately based on the topic, insult me, or otherwise be a disrespectful person

I will give you the same respect you give me. So far, welcome. Nice to see you here.

...A majority of users on here replied with negativity, saying it's virtue-signalling, and that this statement is stupid and dangerous to young men and the movement for men's rights, and that some people just objectively aren't beautiful.

Might be because its a useless thing to say. Men KNOW they aren't perfect and have acne and its ok to be blah blah blah. Personally I don't care about this kind of stuff because its not legal rights (the only thing I really care about) its about a woman saying its ok for men to exist. Great.

-- Beauty is a subjective standard and widespread standards for attractiveness differ from society to society.

not really... Most all cultures enjoy symmetrical features that are fairly easy to read. All like eyes with visible pupils and all like signs of health like hair color and skin texture.

-- You are beautiful just the way you are, with your scars and acne and height and weight and you deserve to love yourself. Regardless of your physical appearance, you are handsome and beautiful in your own way.

Great. Thanks. The thing is, men don't NEED (as in will freak out) if we don't hear this, especially from a random stranger. Its really nice and all but like, its fluff.

-- When you are confident in your beauty and love yourself regardless of how unattractive you or others consider you, you can love (verb) your body by losing weight or staying clean and hygienic.

This is a good message because being healthy and hygenic is a good thing.

-- Loving your body does not make you a better person, nor does it compensate for "unattractiveness". It may according to a vain world's standard of beauty. Loving your body is attractive because it shows you care for yourself. Not caring for yourself doesn't make you "unattractive", though.

Loving your body is a kind of weird phrase IMO. I like my body. I've shaped it and am proud of it, but loving implies just more fluff.

Beauty and attraction is subjective to a society's standards, let alone an individuals's standards. In the real world, women date "ugly" men, and men date "ugly" women, and they find each other attractive!

In the real world rich ugly men and not rich pretty women are basically the same standard. Men are judged on attractiveness based on successes and women on looks. I personally would rather date a woman who is a 5 and actually interesting but I'm not in the majority. Most women would rather date a very hot guy who is rich... There are universal truths about biology.

The burn victim is still beautiful just the way she is. Her face is fucked up, but that doesn't mean she isn't beautiful.

agreed. Her being burned says nothing about her biology or personal choices. Most people would date a kind and caring and thin/athletic burn victim.

She won't be any happier being forced to live thinking "I know I'm the most unattractive person here", she will be happy by accepting her imperfections and that they don't actually have to impact how beautiful she knows herself to be.

I would hope she has enough strength to just not give a fuck about what she thinks others think of her looks at some point.

You can fight against the common feminist message of:

and here we go.

"You are perfect and beautiful just the way you are despite your physical imperfections, and you should love (feeling) your body. And you can love (action) your body by treating it with love. You should never feel like you need to change anything about your body to be beautiful"

Again though... this stuff is just fluff. Most long term relationships aren't based on raw physical looks. They are based on many many aspects of attraction. I do agree body positivism is more for people with real disabilities and problems (like burn victims) than fat people who are "fat and happy." but IMO its all just fluff.

Its nice to be told that I am pretty and wanted, but only really if the person telling me actually knows and cares about me on some level. This big net of "yu r prtty" is just useless.

Title	Re: Body positivity
Author	2717192619192
Upvotes	17
Comments	60
Date	April 18, 2018 5:48 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8d7mip/re_body_positivity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/re-body-positivity.902635 https://theredarchive.com/post/902635

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