The Broken Social Contract

Bobsutan · 2012-06-05T13:58:32+00:00

Found this today and it's a pretty good read on the state of affairs in western society:...

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The writer more of a 13-year-old boy instead of the wise man he pretends to be.

The so-called "social contract" this writer laments would be more along the lines that women were supposed to be subservient homemakers, supportive wives, loving mothers (not some superficial beauty queen) in order to deserve a man's devotion and income.

The whole beauty till death thing is a rather modern invention. In past decades, after marriage a woman's figure was far from importance compared to her ability to make a happy home and bear healthy children.

If the illness of the naive liberal mind is that change is always good the illness of the naive conservative mind is that things were better and more cut and dry in the past.

The masculine attracts the feminine. The feminine attracts the masculine.

Well, let's first just wash all non-heteros under the bus because their opinion's don't count, right? Plus, the writer has no concept of cultural context. Yes, wanna-be warrior, women have never, ever flocked to sensitive 'feminized' men (artists, singers, poetry writers, musicians) in history.

The whole red/blue pill thing is childishly cultish. The "only we few are enlightened" bullshit that starts new religions. As an adult with kids of both genders I cannot get behind telling my daughter that she's to blame for any man's inequality or the other way around. Either we're working together as a team or we're falling apart. Good luck with your "classes" writer, I'm sure they'll be a huge success.

BTW: Alan Alda kicks your ass.

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[–]Grapeban 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

...wow, there is a lot to address there.

Masculine women are generally unattractive to most men and feminine men are generally unattractive to most women.

In what country? Beauty standards are typically driven by culture, not biology, so they're not set in stone. If people idolise masculine men and feminine women, that's because we live in a society which does the same.

We should be playing to each others strengths so we fit instead of clashing like what's been happening at the macro level the last several decades.

Except people's strengths don't neatly fit up with their gender. Not all women rock at raising children, not all men are fantastic engineers. We should play to the strengths of individuals who are actually good at the thing they want to do, rather than base our economy on generalisations.

And then there's the whole men needing the promise of women's sexual access in order to produce and advance society.

So societal progress is driven by dudes wanting to get their sex on? Because I'm relatively certain that sex wasn't that difficult to come by back in the stone age, women weren't going, "No, I'm not having sex till you invent the wheel!"

Also, most of societal progress has been driven, at least initially, by a desire for more food.

Take away that promise and lock up a disproportionate amount of female sexuality in harems, and men are going to drop out. This is what's starting to happen thanks to the feminist movement unrestraining women's sexuality so they're hooking up with alphas.

Wait, what? So because feminists are trying to get rid of slut shaming all women are now joining "harems" run by alpha males and leaving your average Joe with no women? Consequentally average Joe doesn't want to participate in society? Ur, you may want to check in with reality because this argument seems to have gone off the deep end.

The other 80-90% of men are largely going without

Really, 90% of men have no girlfriend. Really.

the advent of Game.

I prefer to call The Game "An Assholes Guide To Exploiting People's Low Self Esteem For Personal Gain And Generally Treating Human Beings And Social Interaction Like Games You Can Win". Not quite as snappy though, I'll work on that.

In other words, men produce to draw women's attention and thus become providers for women and families.

Wait, even if your theory was correct (which it isn't, it so so isn't), wouldn't this just make men work harder so they can become Alphas? If it's no longer easy to find women, surely men will work harder to find them, not stop working. Especially if finding women is their only incentive!

Women making their own money and cock-hoping their prime fertility years (with a minority of men) denies men the typical incentives to labor and produce.

Are you arguing that we should kick women out of the workplace because it's harder for men to get girlfriends now? What?

What we're seeing with boys and men going for porn and video games and only working enough to fuel their hobbies instead of "manning up" is the direct result of all this.

So how come women watch porn and play video games as well then?

And I'm pretty sure even your "Alphas" watch porn and play video games.

In fact, I'm pretty sure most people watch porn and play video games

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[–]Bobsutan[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 14 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

Beauty standards are typically driven by culture, not biology

The fact you believe this says everything I need to know. Culture can influence how we perceiving others, no doubt about it, but raw animal attraction most certainly is biologically motivated. Once you accept this fact go back and read what I wrote earlier.

So how come women watch porn and play video games as well then?

Outliers on the bell-curve. It happens. Just like there are some women who love to program, build bridges, and so on. Most women couldn't care less about that sort of thing and in a free egalitarian society will be drawn to jobs that involve fair amount of socializing. This documentary goes into great detail on the subject:

http://rixstep.com/2/20111127,00.shtml

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/mypkn/hjernevask_brainwash_a_documentary_helped_to_end/

Really, 90% of men have no girlfriend. Really.

90% of men are not getting sex like rock stars. The 10% who almost all women crave are scooping up a disproportionate amount of sexual access. There a NYT article that touches on this when one of the women interviewed makes a very salient point how they're only interested in a minority of guys, and x% of them are taken, sleeping with all the other girls, and so on leaving only a tiny percentage of guys on campus. This same dynamic is happening at large across western society, only most people are oblivious to it.

edit: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=all

here's the quote I was looking for: “Out of that 40 percent, there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent,” This is hypergamy in action.

wouldn't this just make men work harder so they can become Alphas? If it's no longer easy to find women, surely men will work harder to find them, not stop working. Especially if finding women is their only incentive!

Many are going their own way, opting out of the dating market, but others are doing just what you said, doubling down on their beta provisioning mentality and working hard. Other still are embracing Game. Some are doing a mix of 2 of the above, or even all 3. IMO until the system stabilizes, if you want to date and have relationships on your own terms, then you've got to learn Game. Especially if you want to compete with naturals, douchebags, and players for the most attractive women out there who flock to the kid of guys women cry about to their sexless male friends.

[–]Grapeban 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bobsutan[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

The exception only proves the rule. The rule is scientifically researched: 0.7 hip to waist ratio, 40% of exposed skin, long luxurious hair, clear skin, perky boobs, facial symmetry, youthful appearance, pouty lips, and so on are all hallmarks of fertility and what men are evolved to naturally be attracted to. Outliers exist, and do notice that body fat isn't placed in this research. Generally speaking being slender is a good thing as it's natural body type for most humans. Tongas are genetically predisposed to be overweight, so it stands to reason that those who don't have the body fat would be outliers and seen as inferior. This is group dynamics 101. For the rest of us, historically being fat was an outlier and frowned upon. At certain points in history having some plump was seen as a good thing, similarly to having a tan was seen as low-class. Now tans are seen as a good thing. That's a social perception. The core of attraction, however, is biological ingrained, even in the Tongas.

[–]Grapeban 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Even if you're right, and I don't believe you are, it changes nothing. Most of your argument is focused around the idea of women and men complimenting each other economically (as in, women take up nurturing roles, men focus on business, heavy labour, etc.).

And this stuff about beauty standards has nothing to do with the "issue" of alpha males getting all the women! Feminism hasn't changed how women look, it's changed how women view sexual freedom!

Oh, and I see you added some stuff to your rebuttal post up there which I didn't catch, let me address that here.

Outliers on the bell-curve. It happens.

Yeah, bullshit, 42% of videogame players are female.

here's the quote I was looking for: “Out of that 40 percent, there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent,” This is hypergamy in action.

Ah yes, the dreaded beast of female hypergamy. Look, reality simply doesn't match up with what you're saying. Your average man is married. Men are still getting girlfriends. No, they're not all getting "sex like rockstars", but it's never been the case where most people were getting sex like rockstars. Because here's the thing, rockstars get loads of sex because it's part of the whole "rock and roll lifestyle" thing. Most people, don't. And never have. This has never lead to the collapse of society.

Many are going their own way, opting out of the dating market, but others are doing just what you said, doubling down on their beta provisioning mentality and working hard. Other still are embracing Game. Some are doing a mix of 2 of the above, or even all 3. IMO until the system stabilizes, if you want to date and have relationships on your own terms, then you've got to learn Game. Especially if you want to compete with naturals, douchebags, and players for the most attractive women out there who flock to the kid of guys women cry about to their sexless male friends.

Wait, so are men adapting their tactics or giving up entirely and forcing society to collapse? Make up your mind!

Also, tip, if you want to compete with "douchebags", then I cannot recommended The Game highly enough, because following its advice about "negging" and the like will make you into an A-Class douchebag.

[–]Bobsutan[S] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, bullshit, 42% of videogame players are female.

Last time I looked majority of hours spent per week playing games were by males. On the whole, 42% of players may be female, but my mom would be counted in that and she's no "gamer". Not even close. Women do play a lot of video games, but most would probably be classified as "casual gamers" whereas I think a lot more males than females would be the hard-core gamers that the industry's user-base is traditionally defined by.

Ah yes, the dreaded beast of female hypergamy. Look, reality simply doesn't match up with what you're saying. Your average man is married. Men are still getting girlfriends. No, they're not all getting "sex like rockstars", but it's never been the case where most people were getting sex like rockstars. Because here's the thing, rockstars get loads of sex because it's part of the whole "rock and roll lifestyle" thing. Most people, don't. And never have. This has never lead to the collapse of society.

Quite frankly this is old thinking and takes into account a lot of older folks dragging the averages down. Those coming up in high school and collage won't experience traditional relationships the way Gen X, Gen Y, and early Millenials did. The younger generations are going to be stuck with hookup culture, unrestrained hypergamy, and so on. Case in point, the average guy marries in his late 20s and is his 5th or 6th girlfriend and has a couple more sexual partners, IIRC 9 on average. Millenials and i-Generation alphas can expect to have high double digit, if not triple digit partner counts by the time they get out of college! The bulk of the guys in that demographic won't get having girlfriends at all, let alone enjoying all the free sex. You know how I know? I'm there in the trenches working with these guys trying to get their social skills trained up so they can operate within this new framework for dating and relationships. It's brutal for most guys from what I'm seeing. A lot are going to give up, check out, and suffer, some will overcome the challenge with Game, and a few are going to live like kings with their soft harems.

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Masculine women are generally unattractive to most men and feminine men are generally unattractive to most women. We should be playing to each others strengths so we fit instead of clashing like what's been happening at the macro level the last several decades. The dating market has become a battleground of sorts and it need not be that way.

And then there's the whole men needing the promise of women's sexual access in order to produce and advance society. Take away that promise and lock up a disproportionate amount of female sexuality in harems, and men are going to drop out. This is what's starting to happen thanks to the feminist movement unrestraining women's sexuality so they're hooking up with alphas. The other 80-90% of men are largely going without, hence the advent of Game. In other words, men produce to draw women's attention and thus become providers for women and families. Women making their own money and cock-hoping their prime fertility years (with a minority of men) denies men the typical incentives to labor and produce. What we're seeing with boys and men going for porn and video games and only working enough to fuel their hobbies instead of "manning up" is the direct result of all this.

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Men are more visual, maybe, but that doesn't mean women aren't visual. Like I said about musicians, and bad boys. They aren't high-status, or rich, but they're still traditionally very enticing to women.

There are plenty of romcoms about women not going after the best-on-paper option, too. Look at The Notebook--she leaves her rich society fiance for her old, poor boyfriend. Leap Year, she leaves her rich doctor fiance and their perfect classy apartment for a poor Irish pub owner barely scraping by. Moulin Rouge, rejecting the rich Duke and all his diamonds for the poor writer. Look at motherfucking Titanic--rejects her rich dude for a hot poor guy. And I can keep going with loads of popular romcoms. Chick flicks are female fantasies, so why are there so many that contradict you?

I'm not saying money/status doesn't make someone more attractive to most people, but it's certainly not the be all end all for all womankind.

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I think there's some good stuff here, but I'm not sure what acting in a "feminine manner" means. Most of the women I know are certainly feminine or act in a "feminine manner". Most men are masculine. They might have societal roles (jobs) which don't meet with their gendered stereotype, but I don't see that as changing their femininity or masculinity.

If all this means we need to go back to male providors, women in the home, and fault divorce then we're miles apart. We will never have that again. We just can't pretend the technological change we've had in the last 100 years didn't happen. We can't pretend we don't have an educated public.

I do agree that men are still looked upon as the provider/sacrificer despite the fact that women are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves (adulthood). We live in a "ladies" first, men last, culture without any protections for men. This, to me, is the broken contract. Eliminating shared property, alimony, "child" support, and other (largely) female welfare entitlements under "family" law would fix much of that.

[–]Bobsutan[S] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I think there was a natural complimentary advantage to both families AND society as a whole with men providing resources for access to female sexuality. When you boil it right down to the core elements that's what we're really talking about here and has been that way from day 1 when resource provisioning found its way into pair bonding. I talked about the benefits of that here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/um2bh/the_broken_social_contract/c4wmxt1

As for how things have changed and what we're going to see, I think going forward women are really about to take it on the chin socially as men opt out. What women used to be able to get at 20 women won't be able to get until their 30s or 40s, if at all, because of how the sexual marketplace works. Instead you'll be seeing high status males going for younger women more and and the hookup culture kick into high gear up and down the socioeconomic ladder AND age ranges. If we get a male pill, holy shit game over.

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[–]Bobsutan[S] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If you mean women are going to ultimately end up with the same responsibilities as men some day as "taking it on the chin", then I agree. They will be just as happy (or miserable) as men. I don't see anything wrong with that.

On it's face it's a great notion...until you take a closer look at realize women are only displacing men in the good areas of the workforce. What's happening is men are becoming disincentivezed to take the shittier jobs and you've got a large chunk of guys simply going their own way who are opting out. Some by choice, others not so much. When a man cannot get good work, and working shit jobs doesn't even get him a woman the way providership used to basically guarantee a mate, you can expect more Sodinis to happen as a result, and a faltering infrastructure and more social collapse.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Collier_Township_shooting

This is just sad. If only he'd learned game and just gotten laid once in a while, who knows what might have changed...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=8258001&page=1#.T88BRNVYssc

December 24, 2008: Moving into Christmas again. No girlfriend since 1984, last Christmas with Pam was in 1983. Who knows why. I am not ugly or too weird. No sex since July 1990 either (I was 29). No ----! Over eighteen years ago. And did it maybe only 50-75 times in my life. Getting to think that a woman now would just, uh, get in the way of things. Isolated. I have extra money and enjoy traveling, too, wtih my 25-30 days of vacation. LA was the best! But going alone is not too fun. Invited to a party on Christmas day tomorrow. Seems about 15-25 people will actually show. I like her parties; I can meet new people and talk. Got the next 8 days off. I should have exit plan done and practiced by then. I know nothing will change, no matter how hard I try or what goals I set.

More...

December 29, 2008: Just got back from tanning, been doing this for a while. No gym today, my elbow is sore again. I actually look good. I dress good, am clean-shaven, bathe, touch of cologne - yet 30 million women rejected me - over an 18 or 25-year period. That is how I see it. Thirty million is my rough guesstimate of how many desirable single women there are. A man needs a woman for confidence. He gets a boost on the job, career, with other men, and everywhere else when he knows inside he has someone to spend the night with and who is also a friend. This type of life I see is a closed world with me specifically and totally excluded. Every other guy does this successfully to a degree. Flying solo for many years is a destroyer. Yet many people say I am easy to get along with, etc. Looking back, I owe nothing to desirable females who ask for anything, except for basic courtesy - usually. Looking back over everything, what bothers me most is the inability to work towards whatever change I choose.

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Title	The Broken Social Contract
Author	Bobsutan
Upvotes	6
Comments	78
Date	June 5, 2012 1:58 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/um2bh/the_broken_social_contract/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-broken-social-contract.1020409 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020409

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