"TIL Feminist actually help change the definition of rape to include men being victims of rape." Top Comments explain how this isn't true.

offguard · 2014-08-15T12:04:37+00:00

Just a quick pro-tip to anyone responding in that kind of thread - make damned sure you quote the crazies you're responding to, because chances are pretty good that they'll delete their posts afterwards, and nobody who follows up will be able to observe just how loony they are.

There are at least a few deleted posts peppered throughout there that I'd really love to be able to read, especially in light of the responses they generated.

ExpendableOne · 2014-08-15T15:23:37+00:00

Honestly, that post is the most delusional, revisionist, misinformed and out-of-touch bullshit I have seen this year(so far). Most of these points are not even remotely close to honest/true and, of the ones that are, feminism was either not responsible(if not even perhaps in opposition to) or not involved at all. Any "advancements for men", if they could even be called that, was done in the service of women first and foremost, with any/all benefit to men being an unwanted or coincidental by product of their initial intent.

1) women entering the workforce didn't benefit men. In theory, it should but in reality it didn't. Women are, for the most part, really just going after the top jobs(creating more competition for men, often times even unfair competition given special incentives and affirmative action) and forcing more men into shit jobs or being jobless(and, honestly, there's nothing wrong with a more qualified woman getting a job over a less qualified guy, but the fact remains that this guy is still expected to be a provider while she is not).

Not only that but while you would also think that women being independent and able to provide for themselves would grant them the freedom to now choose men with little to no income, over other qualities(like being good, caring, patient, loving, responsible, etc) but it does not. Most women still see their success as something that entitles them to an even richer man, who can/will maintain her lifestyle, or as a prelude to being a better paid stay-at-home mom(or just a higher alimony pay-check).

2) WTF? There are countless examples of women respecting, and sleeping with, their husbands less when they act unmasculine or help around the house. In any case, I don't see how men being expected to do more work(on top of all the other shit that's expected of them because they are men), is a benefit to men. And to say that more women are happier or want to have more sex with men like that is just utter bullshit.

3) I'm not sure how this really has anything to do with feminism, there is a pretty huge amount of projecting going on against this issue and what it entailed.

4) I'm sorry, but you don't get to call this "Feminism fighting for men" when you even call it "men slipping through the cracks". This change was for women, first and foremost, and the fact that it ended up helping men was a completely unintended by-product of this.

5) Women gaining access to birth control, and getting to be more freely promiscuous, doesn't really help men. All this means is that women now can have more sex with more guys, without really having to be in a monogamous relationship(there wouldn't really be any changes within those relationships) and, the "top" guys that women want were already getting laid and had plenty of contraceptives available to them already. This does not help men. For the record, the advancements in technology for vasectomies isn't really "fighting for women" either.

6) Giving women more reproductive rights does not help men in the slightest. Men still have little to no reproductive rights. Giving more options to women, when they already had absolute control/authority over whether or not that child gets to be born(absolute power that apparently does not beget absolute responsibility), does not help men in any way. Also... no, men do not get pregnant.

7) This had nothing to do with feminism! men's rights/egalitarian groups were a lot more involved in getting this definition changed, and in a lot of places the definition of rape is still very sexist. In fact, any change to this seems to have gone in opposition to feminism, which often promotes the idea that rape is something that exclusively happens to women and uses that notion to justify other misandric ideologies.

8) Again, how does "activisim for women that indirectly happens to benefit men because it would be completely unfair otherwise" count as "feminists fighting for men"? Many of these changes happened without feminism, and still hardly benefits men given to social/romantic climate than men face(which feminism still doesn't do anything about).

9) Female politicians doesn't mean feminism. The fact that they got to be in office, as a result of political changes brought on by feminism(arguable) does not mean that they get to take credit for everything that female politicians put forward. Nor do they get to make the claim that male politicians couldn't have brought these points/changes forward because of their gender either.

10) This is complete bullshit. Women in the military are not "fighting on the front lines". Most often they are given safer jobs and pushing more men onto the front lines. The military causalities are still predominantly male, and women still get to benefit from their gender in literally all aspects of their career(lower requirements, easier assignments, same pay, etc).

11) Women fighting for women of colour isn't helping men, or even helping men of colour all that much either. In some situations, there's a bit of common ground and both end up helping each other out(when gender is taken out of the equation) but this doesn't mean that feminism is responsible for any advancements for men of colour here(or any racism in general, including against white people).

12) As if feminists give a shit about men raped in prison, or anything that happens to men in prison for that matter(or how they got there).

13) Where are these women who want to go to work so their husbands can stay at home? This is not something that is common, by any means. Women still expect men to work and still expect to be able to take on the stay-at-home role. Men who don't live by those rules, typically don't get to be in a position to have children, let alone spend more time with their children.

14) yes... unless you're white and male.

15/16) Again, you don't get to claim every female invention to your cause. Either way, this is not something that was done for men, and this has more to do with gay rights than men's rights.

17) Yes, a misandric celebrity that popularized the lyrics "who run the world? girls" is all about helping men.

18) Another invention that feminists think they get to claim to their cause because it was thought of by a woman(pretty sure a guy would of thought of this one eventually), despite the fact that feminists have made their overall hate/disdain for heterosexual men's "marbles" pretty clear. How many times do you see feminists and other extremists bring up male castration? How many feminists actually give a shit about male reproductive rights? How many feminists give a shit about MGM?

Also...no. A woman didn't invent the first computer.

19) Really? because it seems pretty clear to me that most men aren't any happier today than they were in the past.

20) I'm pretty sure that was all men's rights.

21) Feminists fighting for a wage gap that has nothing to do with discrimination and sexism does not help men. Quite the opposite. Pretty sure feminists had very little to do with men getting into nursing and other fields either.

22) It's not men who need to rethink the masculine standards, it's women. The fact that they would even target men, often insulting and attacking them because they are men, is not helping men. Women are the ones who push and enforce those standards onto heterosexual men. These standards are still very much alive and going strong because women still expect them from men, and feminist has done everything in its power to exempt heterosexual women from any accountability on this topic. They will go after men for enforcing feminine standards though.

23) once again, taking credit where none is due.

Even if these 23 points were all clear demonstrations of feminists actively and purposefully fighting for the benefit/rights of men, that still does not negate the countless actions and justifications that were made by feminism against men(and continue to be made).

Filimononimo · 2014-08-15T10:56:29+00:00

I wrote an argument in the comments. I think I was too late though, few if any will bother read it, & it will be downvoted to hell. Could I have done a better job of presenting my arguments? I think I came across as a little too anti-feminist to begin with, instead of presenting an unbiased perspective. Were the points any good or factual?

Edit; I deleted & reposted the comment, this time shorter & with less critique so it wouldn't be judged too early. Sadly it gets buried under feminist support. Lots of downvotes for any critique toward feminism. =(

http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2dlq8z/til_feminist_actually_help_change_the_definition/cjqwq9t

Vanitati · 2014-08-15T18:37:45+00:00

Ah, the daily "you got a boner you weren't raped" argument.

I'm starting to wonder what their response is if just being aroused constitutes sex how can women suddenly claim bad sex as rape the day after etc?

blueoak9 · 2014-08-15T17:18:23+00:00

What a raunchy cesspit that comment section is - brigaded to death by SRSers.

Spikemaw · 2014-08-15T13:22:40+00:00

What a shit show. I can't even find the post OP is referring to.

dontsuckbeawesome · 2014-08-15T14:02:10+00:00

Yeah, I just ran into that one a few minutes ago. It's a lie, but of course the AMR poster though it was a great thing to put on TIL. Let's see if their mods take it down, I'd bet no.

Riktenkay · 2014-08-15T16:10:58+00:00

"Help change"? It doesn't need to be changed, it's never been dependent on gender until the looney feminists came along!

Methodius_ · 2014-08-15T16:54:41+00:00

So, wait. Does the FBI actually consider men who were forced-to-penetrate rape victims now? Is that actually part of their definition of rape?

A few of the comments seemed to suggest it, but none of their links actually showed definite proof (only showing that it could be interpreted that way, not that it is).

Anyone have any links or anything to prove this?

TorontoAnnex · 2014-08-15T15:53:06+00:00

Yeah when I saw that in my feed ( having already read the article before when it was here ) I reported it.

Don't be afraid of reporting stuff that goes against rules.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2014-08-15T20:14:00+00:00

OP of that thread is an AMR poster, which makes them at best baiting.

typhonblue · 2014-08-15T14:39:28+00:00

Great. Now support equal services to male victims.

2014-08-16T00:26:15+00:00

This is one of the main reasons why I can't take feminism seriously anymore. And that's the polite way of putting it.

Bad enough they want to deny that the misandric element has commandeered, and now riding, the movement into a sink hole.

Now these feminists suddenly want credit for issues Men are raising when they didn't do a god-damn thing to deserve it.

Case in point: Male victims and survivors of sexual abuse.

"Without feminism, you wouldn't have the terminology and jargon to call what happened 'Rape'"

Well, we would've if your precious Mary K. Ross hadn't snatched it away from us from the beginning. Even a simple protest and calling out would've helped.

But you did jack shit and declared Rape "Something that men do to women only, boys to girls." Decades of this and now we're trying to clear the toxic waste you dumped.

And you come out and say '"Without feminism, you're nothing."

There were men who were sexually abused as boys in the past. Now they're finally coming out yes...in their 50s, 60s all the way up to their golden years. Now I wonder why no one would listen to them, believe them at the time. Can't just be restrictive gender roles alone, can it?

God, if the movement isn't being ignorant, bigoted or misandric, it's flaunting its misshapen ego in a dick waving contest.

In summary: Please take your egotistical claim of paving the way for male victims to have a voice and shove it up your ass. That way your head won't feel so lonely anymore.

2014-08-15T22:58:33+00:00

Ask Mary Koss:

“Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman. p. 206”

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/male-disposability-and-mary-p-koss/

The original paper: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/nfqxs9cxu524gk2/Koss%20-%201993%20-%20Detecting%20the%20Scope%20of%20Rape%20-%20a%20review%20of%20prevalence%20research%20methods.pdf?token_hash=AAEFRT8VplwV5Xgc0Fxab0-YwewdVbDKZYSPAiCDkjjNcw&dl=1

Title	"TIL Feminist actually help change the definition of rape to include men being victims of rape." Top Comments explain how this isn't true.
Author	izomo
Upvotes	323
Comments	26
Date	August 15, 2014 10:37 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2dmgke/til-feminist-actually-help-change-the-definition-/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/til-feminist-actually-help-change-the-definition.1620132 https://theredarchive.com/post/1620132