What is rape?

oneiorosgrip · 2012-07-27T23:28:21+00:00

Others will disagree with me (some vehemently,) but my definition of rape is not the same as the law.

It is when the perpetrator - male or female - refuses the victim - male or female - a choice of whether or not to participate, but instead makes himself or herself the sole controlling party in the act, by one of four methods: Physical force, true coercion, using incapacitation, or taking advantage of an individual too young (or genuinely disabled) to consent.

If the accused perp did not actively coerce the alleged victim into ceasing to resist, forcefully ignore the victim's refusal or resistance, or ignore a condition of obvious inability to make that decision (an adult with an underage person, incapacitated, mentally handicapped) it's not rape... even if the alleged victim later wishes the act had never occurred, and even if there was no spoken request for consent, and no spoken consent given. To call regretted sex rape does not protect potential victims from being raped. It only reduces the seriousness with which rape allegations can be treated by society.

MrStonedOne · 2012-07-27T23:21:06+00:00

I am going to strongly suggest that no one comment on /r/Feminism's version of this. We want it to exist in full without our watering down of it. to show case.

alecbenzer · 2012-07-27T23:52:18+00:00

When someone has something sexual done to them that they did not consent to.

To perhaps offer a perspective likely to be a bit contrary to some answers you might get from /r/Feminism, here's an example of something I do not think is rape: Two people are in bed. One wants to have sex, and the other does not. The one who wants to have sex continually nags/bothers the other about wanting to have sex, and the other person eventually gives in.

I've seen people try to argue that things like this are rape because the person who originally did not want to have sex was "forced" into consenting it. This is ridiculous -- it's like trying to argue that being nagged about doing chores is like being enslaved, or that being nagged about getting dragged to the grocery store is kidnapping.

A more difficult situation is where someone consents due to fear of being hurt. On the one hand, if someone is being threatened, they may genuinely feel as if they are being forced to consent (threatening violence is a force of coercion). On the other hand, if the other person did not intend to come across as threatening, it hardly seems fair to hold them accountable for knowing what's going on inside the other person's head and realize that the consent was not genuine.

In cases like this, I think we have to resort to using standard measures of what reasonably constitutes a threat. Some pulling out a knife and saying "I think you should agree to have sex with me, if you know what's good for you" is most certainly a threat, whereas something on the other end of the spectrum would be a woman feeling arbitrarily scared of a person because "he's a big scary man, he could hurt me!".

I don't think the idea of a "reasonable" threat is new to the legal systems. This was an issue with the George Zimmerman case -- someone felt threatened, but was this feeling reasonable? Is seeing a hooded black kid walking about a reasonable threat?

Another point where I might disagree with /r/Feminism is this idea of "enthusiastic consent" being necessary. It's great if there is enthusiastic consent between two people, but human communication is complicated, and it's ridiculous to classify everything that occurs below "enthusiastic consent" as rape. It's a good standard to strive for, but not a good one to use as the bar for when a crime has been committed.

loose-dendrite · 2012-07-27T23:26:52+00:00

Rape is when you FORCE someone to have sex. Pressuring is not rape. It is not rape when alcohol is involved unless the rapist is much less intoxicated than the victim.

MaunaLoona · 2012-07-28T00:12:42+00:00

I think a useful test in any rape accusation would be:

Could the victim have walked away?

If the answer is 'yes', we have to be very careful about calling it rape.

On the other hand, if the answer is 'no', then in most cases it's rape. Possible exceptions in case of BDSM apply.

DerpaNerb · 2012-07-28T04:31:16+00:00

Rape is sex without the consent of both parties.

The tricky thing is the definition of consent.

1) Drunken consent is still consent... as long as that person got drunk of their own free will (and you know, they are not so drunk that they can actually give consent).

2) Consent does not always have to be verbal. Undressing yourself in front of your partner qualifies in my book. So does participating in any way.

3) Persuasion to get consent is not bad... This doesn't mean you can say "Say yes or i'll beat you up", but it does mean that it is okay to try and "sell yourself". Many feminists will have you think that any discussion about anything after the first "no", will make anything that follows rape, even if the other party did end up consenting (without feeling threatened).

4) A person cannot give consent (through any of the above "methods") because they feel like they have to, or are irrationally scared of something if they dont... and then revoke that consent after the fact and call it rape.

MaunaLoona · 2012-07-27T23:39:18+00:00

The definition of rape, whatever form it might take, must be objective. From the definition a man or a woman must be able to know, without doubt, where that 'rapey' line is and what one must do to avoid crossing it.

This would exclude coercion or repeatedly asking until the woman says yes from the definition of rape.
It would also exclude drunk sex from automatically counting as rape, unless the partner is completely incapacitated and physically unable to give consent.

Here's my favorite article over at COTWA which explores these issues in depth:

http://www.cotwa.info/2012/03/legal-infirmities-to-punishing-sexual.html

rightsbot · 2012-07-27T22:48:18+00:00

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buylocal745 · 2012-07-28T01:30:32+00:00

Forced sexual acts. Plain and simple. Not forced penetration, not forcing penetration. FORCED SEXUAL ACTS.

SDcowboy82 · 2012-07-28T07:49:34+00:00

Someone is raped when they are forced into performing a sexual act against their will or without their consent. Kind of a grey definition, to be sure, but I believe the legal code needs more grey areas to allow each case to be decided on its own merits.

2012-07-28T07:23:33+00:00

The proper definition of rape is a sex act without consent. It's the "sex" part which distinguishes rape from regular assault. The easiest cases to identify as rape are when a woman is held down and forcibly penetrated while resisting and voicing her non-consent and disapproval. But that's not the only case. If at any time you are told to stop, and you don't, that's rape. If you initiate sex with an unconscious partner, it's probably rape unless permission was established beforehand. Ex: being woken up by your partner performing oral sex is not rape within the context of two people who are already sexual/romantic partners. Being woken up, told to stop, and then not stopping would be. Intoxicated sex acts start to get hazy. If both partners are intoxicated and have sex and neither can remember anything, either the sex was mutually consensual or mutually non-consensual absent any other evidence. Either there was no rape, or their claims of rape against each other are equally strong. If an intoxicated woman cannot consent, then neither can a man. Pressuring someone to have sex is not rape in most cases unless the pressuring escalates to intimidation, threats, or blackmail. Reluctantly consenting is still consent.

All of these examples show how difficult it is to pin down exactly what rape should be defined as. One thing however is clear, it cannot be a crime which is defined only by the alleged victim's opinion on whether they were raped. If the concept "if you feel you were victimized, then you were" is allowed to be used to establish guilt then our entire legal system would be pointless--as would any concept of justice. The victim's testimony, opinion, and state of mind are important and deserve consideration but allowing that to be the sole evidence used to establish guilt would allow miscarriages of justice on a massive scale. Imagine a world where you can get anyone arrested and imprisoned just by accusing them of a crime. Not any kind of society I want to live in (in many ways that's the world men already suffer through with rampant false accusations of rape which destroy lives). The entire purpose of collecting evidence, investigating, and having a trial either by jury or judge is to prevent the wrong people from being punished, and to establish beyond reasonable doubt that the person who does get punished actually committed the crime.

But it's difficult to talk about this without also providing the opposing side for contrast, so let me paint a picture of what the feminists want.

Feminists want the definition of rape expanded to include all heterosexual sex. They want a word/legal system where all sex acts between a man and a woman are rape, perpetrated by the man with the woman as sole victim. Women then pardon the man after the fact, but this permission can be retroactively revoked at any time and for any reason, reclassifying the man as a rapist. She can change her mind at any time. It is her opinion on whether or not she is raped that defines the crime. It is rape if she believes she is raped (or even if she doesn't believe but claims she does).

Radical feminism believes the answer to "rape culture" (which doesn't really exist) is to "properly" classify all acts of rape as what they are. Their list of acts which qualify is potentially ALL SEX. Remember, it's the woman's opinion alone that defines the crime of rape. They want females to have the last and only word on whether a particular act was rape: and the answer they believe will always be that it was. Afterward, women can benevolently decide to pardon their rapist for as long or as short a time as she chooses.

The world will not improve by replacing oppression by men with oppression by females. Women have made real gains in many areas of society and law, so much so that the balance of power is now tipped heavily in favor of women in many areas of life. I'd rather see true equality, not one "dictatorship" replaced by another.

NWOslave · 2012-07-28T00:23:35+00:00

If you want an actual definition, it is the use of physical force to obtain sex.

If you want the modern day version, it is the above definition plus, if you were drunk or high, verbal coercion. Also, any woman can decide even years later if she was raped even if she didn't think so at the time and press charges. Each state has a different statute of limitations for pressing charges. EX: New York state there is no limitation.

As the law continues to change the definition of rape, eventually rape will consist of the accusation and innocense will have to be proven.

Here is the list of states and the statutes for each state. http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/criminal-defense-statute-of-limitations.cfm#state

TheNickLovin · 2012-07-28T02:06:14+00:00

I'd say rape absolutely includes pressuring, and the involving of alcohol - when you are intoxicated, you cannot give consent. Rape should have the widest definition possible in order to protect potential victims.

Mitschu · 2012-07-28T02:26:05+00:00

[permanently deleted]

dakru · 2012-07-28T03:28:46+00:00

The two main types, in my eyes, are forcing someone into something sexual, and drugging someone to get them to do something sexual (giving someone a drink doesn't count, but putting something in their drink that they don't know about does count).

MadeMeMeh · 2012-07-28T14:04:17+00:00

Rape is having sex with somebody without their consent.

I believe the major disagreement is over what constitutes consent. How and when that consent is and/or can be given and/or withdrawn.

If you do not get good data on consent you should do a follow up study for that information.

Good luck on collecting your data.

DejaBoo · 2012-07-28T17:53:15+00:00

Rape is a Crime.

Rape should be only defined in terms that a reasonable jury can therefore convict a person of the behavior -- Rape.

This, imo, is the real important factor of defining rape and I would bet all my Karma that the world at large believes Rape as a crime and therefore it should be defined and only defined in terms of a crime. In other words the psychologist should GTFO trying to define rape.

Best definitions, therefore, would be an observable act.

Sexual physical act that takes any persons body and uses it for ones own self satisfaction without consent.

Consent should be observable such as explicit and implicit verbal or explicit non verbal. For example, reciprocating physically, assisting in the act and etc.

WieldsOblivion · 2012-07-28T20:59:15+00:00

I can't find this thread on r/Feminism ><' I'm a lass, hope you don't mind me posting here?

My definition of rape: forced sexual activity of any gender of any age; if you coerce/threaten someone into it and they go along with it because they've no other choice, that also qualifies as rape in my opinion. If it's two people in a relationship and it's just a "honey I don't feel like it tonight" "aah come ooonnnn" and then the two people engage in sexual activity both consensually, that is not rape.

Rape can be committed by either sex, just because guys have more of the means to do it doesn't meant they are the only ones who commit these horrifics acts that cause psychological as well as physical damage.

drops two cents

sharkjumping101 · 2012-07-27T23:19:41+00:00

... Baby don't hurt me... don't hurt me... no more...

I fully expect to get downvoted to all hell for joking about your thread title like this.

In seriousness, though; in the sexual sense, to me, rape is intercourse without consent of both parties.

IamJexy · 2012-07-28T09:31:48+00:00

When one person, involved in the sexual act, attempts to force consent, or removes the ability to consent or not consent, from the other person or people involved in the sexual act.

I have never been able to understand why a lot of people think that if you get yourself intoxicated you somehow have no responsibility for your intoxication or what you do while intoxicated.

Lati0s · 2012-07-28T00:28:32+00:00

Rape is when one person forces another to engage in a sexual act. This can be physical force as in holding someone down, or it can be threatening them. Having sex with someone who is incapable of resisting would be another example.

It might be a good idea to add some example scenarios to the OP as two people can have very similar definitions but apply them differently to get different conclusions.

EDIT: I subscribe to both /r/mensrights and /r/feminism so I have posted this reply in both subreddits.

Lawtonfogle · 2012-07-28T04:21:22+00:00

What is sex?

What is consent?

For the first, you have to consider how some people respond differently to different physical or even non-physical acts.

While the most extreme cases of sex are clearly sex, what about actions that don't reach those points? What if neither party reaches orgasm? What if both parties are wearing basic underwear and no touching is done under it? What if the genitals aren't involved at all?

While some of this may be solved by instead referring to this as sexual interact that, if lacking consent (which we will take a look at soon) when done, is sexual assault, then we have a problem of drawing the line between rape and sexual assault as well as the problem of deciding exactly where is the line drawn between sexual assault and unwanted but not sexual assault contact.

And then, to add more complexity, what happens when there is no physical act, no reality, to go alongside the narrative? This may be confusing at first, but once you understand the nature of false memories and perception, it is possible (even if highly unlikely) for one person to convince another person that they had been raped in the past, thus resulting in false memories of the event happening. While in reality, nothing of the sort happened, this individual will now go through life with the perception of having been raped. Is the one who implanted such an idea in the wrong? Does this even count.

Before you say the previous point is moot, look up some of the cases of child sexual abuse scares in the past where children who were never abused were investigated in such a way that they ended up fully believing they have been abused. I suggest looking into the McMartin Day Care case for starters.

And then on to consent.

No means no, right? But does the lack of an explicit yes mean there is not consent (this idea is sometimes referred to as 'yes means yes'. What about explicit past consent for future actions where implicit consent is given. In other words, perhaps a husband/wife agreeing that who ever wakes up first has to wake the other up with oral sex. Or maybe one partner doesn't mind their other having sex with them while they are drifting off to sleep. And then there is the classical case where (especially after a wedding) you have two spouses who are both somewhat drunk (and thus unable to given consent) who then agree to have sex. Did they both rape each other.

And this isn't even getting into the complexities of when the law determines you unfit for consent, either due to age or mental ability.

Or the issues where one person isn't really able to say no. For example, one person ends up living with another, carrying on a relationship. But the first person, for what ever reasons, recent or not, has next to nothing, not even an apartment to move into. Their partner could potentially kick them out and they could end up homeless, so they are inherently pressured to consent to sexual interactions. But what if they both really love each other and thoughts like this don't even cross their minds?

And then, you have the more interesting cases. For example, one individual may be horrified of another without just cause, and as such, they explicitly consent to sex that they do not want to a degree that they can fool the judgement of the other person. Now, had the other individual given reason for the first to fear, we would easily deduce consent under duress isn't, but what happens if there was no rational reason for the duress and the other party did not pick up on it. At best, a question like this gets deflected by people saying such a situation would never exist, though I find the claim that you never have couples where at least one individual is very inept at reading the other to be a humorous if not sad claim indeed.

So what is rape? Sex without consent. Three words, and yet they contain such extreme complexity, not in every situation, probably not even in most situations, but at least in the outlier situations.

2012-07-28T00:52:23+00:00

Sex in which one or more people involved do not give consent or cannot give meaningful consent for some reason (the definition of meaningful consent and what that constitutes is the difficult part. Where I live, a 16-year-old can give meaningful consent to everyone who isn't their boss or teacher. Across the border, they can't to anybody. The question of mind-altering substances and consent is always a big debate in the wider society, with some activists insisting NO inebriated sex can have consent and college kids across the country going out on the town with the intention of getting hammered and nailed, so to speak, regardless. The question of two equally inebriated people is always an issue. The question of two underaged people is always an issue. The issue of disability is another, with some activists demanding that nobody have sex with the mentally disabled to avoid rape, and some disability self-advocates wanting to have sex without people claiming their partner is taking advantage of them. So, thorny issues at the edge, but the core definition around which those arguments are had is pretty clear. Sex without consent is rape.

Note: Identical to my response to r/feminism

Title	What is rape?
Author	qazwwsxedc
Upvotes	26
Comments	62
Date	July 27, 2012 10:46 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/x9sq1/what_is_rape/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-is-rape.1017008 https://theredarchive.com/post/1017008

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