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[–]Historybuffman76 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It isn't "proven innocent", innocence is the default, presumed state. That is why we use the term "innocent until proven guilty" to express the presumption of innocence.
I know that feminists, and many other groups, would love to have their accusations default to guilty until the person is proven innocent, to have a presumption of guilt. And then they would, if they had the power, make being proven innocent impossible unless you were "one of theirs". No bad tactics, only bad targets, after all.
Presumption of guilt is considered a human rights violation by the UN.
Collective guilt (that all men are inherently sexist/rapists/etc according to feminist theory) is a type of presumption of guilt.
Another example of presumption of guilt is extrajudicial punishment and rushing to judgement. The MeToo movement is perfect blend of those two. People are accused, and this simple accusation is used to harass and leads to punishment (such as getting the accused fired) without the person even being given a chance to defend themselves.
Spreading false statistics, such as the lie that "only 2-8% of rape accusations are false", can lead to a public perception that rape claims are true by default simply due to the numbers, which naturally precludes a fair hearing for one accused of it, as they are already presumed guilty... simply due to the belief that the claim is true.
Yeah. I wonder why people are bothered that the presumption of innocence is being destroyed.
[–]EricAllonde25 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I know that feminists, and many other groups, would love to have their accusations default to guilty until the person is proven innocent, to have a presumption of guilt.
Alison Saunders, the feminist head of the Crown Prosecution Service in the UK until last year, wanted to do exactly that for rape cases.
Fortunately she didn't succeed.
But the mere fact that someone with more than enough legal experience to know better, and a huge amount of power & influence over legal institutions, would push for that is downright scary for men.
[–]valenin20 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Fortunately she didn’t succeed.
... yet.
This is one of those ‘we have to win repeatedly, they only have to win once’ situations. Stay vigilant.
[–]Men-Are-Human4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Oh, she did. For a long while. Her predecessor did too.
[–]DJ-Roukan1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Correct. Innocent is the default presumption. He has to prove nothing. That burden falls upon the accuser.
And correct again. This is what it has come to.
[–]Lion_amongst_gods23 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why should one "prove" innocence? Isn't the plaintiff's responsibility to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt?
[–]BachKunst18 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sweet summer children, it’s because we are men
[–]tenchineuro8 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I doubt any MRA said anything like this, the legal term of art is 'not guilty', a concept RFANA clearly does not understand.
[–]IronJohnMRA8 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I've seen multiple MRA's use the phrase, "proven innocent."
I haven't. Sounds like bullshit to me.
[–]alclarkey4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I've seen multiple MRAs
Gonna need to see some evidence there. And how many is multiple? 3, 5? There's thousands upon thousands of us. Those 5 that she argued with do not represent MRA's as a whole.
[–]turbulance44 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Devil's advocate:
I have seen several MRAs make a suggestion like: "rape accusers should be sentenced to the time the man would have gotten if he's found innocent."
In this specific situation the difference between proven innocent and presumed innocent is quite important. This is probably what the person in the picture is referencing.
IMHO, if we want to be taken seriously, we should not make statements like that.
[–]jarockinights6 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Right, just because someone convicted of assault received a "not guilty" does not mean that their accuser is now guilty of lying. The law is well aware that just because you can't prove a crime doesn't mean the person didn't do it. But obviously that also isn't a reliable way to bring about judgement, hence not having to prove one's Innocence but rather you must prove guilt.
[–]Standard_Rules_Apply1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ah. But you are forgetting the very real consequences of false accusations.
I say that they should be accountable for that...
[–]juanml823 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Let's see. If someone rapes, that person is a rapist.
If that can be proven in a fair trial, that person is convicted of rape and the rest of society can know that.
If it can't be proven in a fair trial, that person is a rapist, but no conviction should take place and society can not know for sure if that person is a rapist.
I think there are essentially three issues when it comes to criminal trials, of any crime:
[–]tenchineuro4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Problem is, there are no fair rape trials, everything possible is done to limit the defense and in the UK they literally pay the woman to make accusations then give her lifelong anonymity even if her accusations are proven false.
[–]headingtoshore2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In one view a person is assumed innocent and if an accusation goes unproven remains innocent of the charge.
In another view a man is declared to be a rapist and if the courts fail to convict him he is still a rapist but he got off.
the image above conflates these two views, in it's phrase 'they claim that if there is no conviction, the rapist is automatically innocent'
[–]Evildl172 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
So in an attempt to correct a misunderstanding of how the justice system works, she has gone and misunderstood how the justice system works.
Now, she is right, a plaintiff cannot be found "proven innocent," just guilty or not guilty. Cassie Anthony is technically not guilty, but probably not innocent for example. And in theory, same principle applies to rape allegations. However this doesn't negate presumption of innocence until proof of guilt. We still have to treat Cassie Anthony as innocent even when her guilt seems clear.
What she is missing, either because of who she is debating with or what, but the argument is for due process for rape allegations. It doesn't mean don't believe a potential victim, it means let's get all the facts on the table before we jump to conclusions.
[–]McFeely_Smackup1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
well, there have been a great many instances where accused men HAVE in fact been "proven innocent" of false accusations.
So it would seem that she is pretending those don't exist, or that she's simply unaware of them...which would seem to make her a bald faced liar.
[–]Kanonizator1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
There is a technical distinction between not being able to properly prove something or proving its opposite, yes, but I'm fairly certain RFANA doesn't grasp this properly, instead she thinks everyone accused of rape is automatically guilty. Anyways, our justice systems work in a way that a 'not guilty' verdict should be treated as a declaration of innocence for all intents and purposes. If people keep second guessing judges or juries the justice system can't operate properly.
[–]mensmod0 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The problem is the dual usage/meaning of the word innocent.
Innocent used legally means "not guilty by a court of law", while innocent used colloquially means "did not do what the accused action". It is possible for a person to do commit an act and yet be found innocent in court.
[–]zibitee-6 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Without conviction, they're not necessarily "innocent" either. Just "not guilty".
[–]grandmasbroach4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, but the standard is still innocent until PROVEN guilty.
[–]zibitee1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's really hard to get a judgment stating that the defendant is "innocent". The court usually ends the judgment with "not guilty". That is the ruling. Does that mean the defendant isn't innocent? Nope, but that's just how court rulings usually work. Without adequate conviction evidence for murky sexual-anything cases, they usually end with "not guilty" of X crime. Just stating a fact.
[–]JcbAzPx3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The default state of an accused person is innocent. If they are not guilty it means they do not lose their innocent state. That's why a judge cannot declare someone innocent, they already are innocent.
Obviously it is impossible to know for certain what actually happened in most cases, but in the eyes of the law, anyone not proven guilty is innocent.
You're right. Lets get rid of "not guilty" judgments completely. Doesn't make sense at all!
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[–]Historybuffman76 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]EricAllonde25 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]valenin20 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Men-Are-Human4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]DJ-Roukan1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Lion_amongst_gods23 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]BachKunst18 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tenchineuro8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]IronJohnMRA8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]alclarkey4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]turbulance44 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]jarockinights6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Standard_Rules_Apply1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]juanml823 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tenchineuro4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]headingtoshore2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Evildl172 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]McFeely_Smackup1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Kanonizator1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]mensmod0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]zibitee-6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]grandmasbroach4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]zibitee1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]JcbAzPx3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]zibitee1 point [recovered] | Copy Link