Why can’t we understand?

Historybuffman · 2019-04-16T15:36:56+00:00

It isn't "proven innocent", innocence is the default, presumed state. That is why we use the term "innocent until proven guilty" to express the presumption of innocence.

I know that feminists, and many other groups, would love to have their accusations default to guilty until the person is proven innocent, to have a presumption of guilt. And then they would, if they had the power, make being proven innocent impossible unless you were "one of theirs". No bad tactics, only bad targets, after all.

Presumption of guilt is considered a human rights violation by the UN.

Collective guilt (that all men are inherently sexist/rapists/etc according to feminist theory) is a type of presumption of guilt.

Another example of presumption of guilt is extrajudicial punishment and rushing to judgement. The MeToo movement is perfect blend of those two. People are accused, and this simple accusation is used to harass and leads to punishment (such as getting the accused fired) without the person even being given a chance to defend themselves.

Spreading false statistics, such as the lie that "only 2-8% of rape accusations are false", can lead to a public perception that rape claims are true by default simply due to the numbers, which naturally precludes a fair hearing for one accused of it, as they are already presumed guilty... simply due to the belief that the claim is true.

Yeah. I wonder why people are bothered that the presumption of innocence is being destroyed.

Lion_amongst_gods · 2019-04-16T15:17:35+00:00

Why should one "prove" innocence? Isn't the plaintiff's responsibility to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt?

tenchineuro · 2019-04-16T18:47:32+00:00

I doubt any MRA said anything like this, the legal term of art is 'not guilty', a concept RFANA clearly does not understand.

IronJohnMRA · 2019-04-16T19:07:56+00:00

I've seen multiple MRA's use the phrase, "proven innocent."

I haven't. Sounds like bullshit to me.

alclarkey · 2019-04-16T19:54:39+00:00

I've seen multiple MRAs

Gonna need to see some evidence there. And how many is multiple? 3, 5? There's thousands upon thousands of us. Those 5 that she argued with do not represent MRA's as a whole.

turbulance4 · 2019-04-16T20:23:20+00:00

Devil's advocate:

I have seen several MRAs make a suggestion like: "rape accusers should be sentenced to the time the man would have gotten if he's found innocent."

In this specific situation the difference between proven innocent and presumed innocent is quite important. This is probably what the person in the picture is referencing.

IMHO, if we want to be taken seriously, we should not make statements like that.

juanml82 · 2019-04-16T17:27:33+00:00

Let's see. If someone rapes, that person is a rapist.

If that can be proven in a fair trial, that person is convicted of rape and the rest of society can know that.

If it can't be proven in a fair trial, that person is a rapist, but no conviction should take place and society can not know for sure if that person is a rapist.

I think there are essentially three issues when it comes to criminal trials, of any crime:

Did this person commit the crime?
Can we know if this person committed the crime?
Can we prove it in a fair trial, under the full protection of the law?

headingtoshore · 2019-04-16T15:34:49+00:00

In one view a person is assumed innocent and if an accusation goes unproven remains innocent of the charge.

In another view a man is declared to be a rapist and if the courts fail to convict him he is still a rapist but he got off.

the image above conflates these two views, in it's phrase 'they claim that if there is no conviction, the rapist is automatically innocent'

Evildl17 · 2019-04-16T17:40:36+00:00

So in an attempt to correct a misunderstanding of how the justice system works, she has gone and misunderstood how the justice system works.

Now, she is right, a plaintiff cannot be found "proven innocent," just guilty or not guilty. Cassie Anthony is technically not guilty, but probably not innocent for example. And in theory, same principle applies to rape allegations. However this doesn't negate presumption of innocence until proof of guilt. We still have to treat Cassie Anthony as innocent even when her guilt seems clear.

What she is missing, either because of who she is debating with or what, but the argument is for due process for rape allegations. It doesn't mean don't believe a potential victim, it means let's get all the facts on the table before we jump to conclusions.

McFeely_Smackup · 2019-04-16T21:32:49+00:00

I've seen multiple MRA's use the phrase, "proven innocent."

well, there have been a great many instances where accused men HAVE in fact been "proven innocent" of false accusations.

So it would seem that she is pretending those don't exist, or that she's simply unaware of them...which would seem to make her a bald faced liar.

Kanonizator · 2019-04-17T10:05:24+00:00

There is a technical distinction between not being able to properly prove something or proving its opposite, yes, but I'm fairly certain RFANA doesn't grasp this properly, instead she thinks everyone accused of rape is automatically guilty. Anyways, our justice systems work in a way that a 'not guilty' verdict should be treated as a declaration of innocence for all intents and purposes. If people keep second guessing judges or juries the justice system can't operate properly.

mensmod · 2019-04-16T23:43:42+00:00

The problem is the dual usage/meaning of the word innocent.

Innocent used legally means "not guilty by a court of law", while innocent used colloquially means "did not do what the accused action". It is possible for a person to do commit an act and yet be found innocent in court.

zibitee · 2019-04-16T18:18:35+00:00

Without conviction, they're not necessarily "innocent" either. Just "not guilty".

Title	Why can’t we understand?
Author	BachKunst
Upvotes	161
Comments	25
Date	April 16, 2019 3:12 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/bdv2cp/why-cant-we-understand/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-cant-we-understand.1626075 https://theredarchive.com/post/1626075

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