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Why Does Britain Drive Its Young Men Insane?

BootStampingOnAHuman

March 23, 2014

41 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/why-does-britain-drive-its-young-men-insane-paris-lees

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Post Information

Title	Why Does Britain Drive Its Young Men Insane?
Author	BootStampingOnAHuman
Upvotes	41
Comments	78
Date	March 23, 2014 1:59 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/215brm/why_does_britain_drive_its_young_men_insane/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-does-britain-drive-its-young-men-insane.1002436 https://theredarchive.com/post/1002436

Comments

[–]girlwriteswhat 29 points30 points31 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Domestic violence is one of the leading causes of death for young women. Suicide is the leading cause of death for young men. So what are we going to do about all these angry and lost young guys?

There have been about ten times as many suicides as homicides in the UK in 2011 (about 600 homicides vs about 6000 suicides). Men were about 2/3 of suicide victims (about 4000 that year).

I'm finding it very difficult to find a basic statistic on homicide rates for men and women in the UK, though wikipedia's article on DV claims that in the UK in 2009, "about 100 women" were killed by their partners (sounds plausible, given that official crime stats say that 51% of women killed were killed by an intimate partner, though I'm guessing they rounded up).

So despite DV being "a leading cause" of death for women in the UK, male suicide rates are 40 times higher, and female suicide rates are 20 times higher. Women in the UK are 20 times more likely to die by their own hand than by a current or former partner's.

Yet DV is a "leading cause" of death for women? Suicide among men is somehow an "equivalent" problem to IP homicide of women, when even suicide among women is 20 times more prevalent than IP homicide of women?

Gahhhh. Do these people just repeat what they hear? Doesn't anyone fact check?

[–]soproblematic 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Vinyls_Scratch 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, look at how that violence plays out. Primarily against men, including themselves. Men are 40 times more likely to commit suicide than to kill their intimate partners. Men are 1/20th as likely to kill their partners than women are to kill themselves.

I agree that she's trying to draw attention to a serious problem. But to lump male-perpetrated spousal homicide in with male suicide as equivalent problems (at least in terms of the victims) seems like a sneaky way of vilifying men and "what about the wimminz"ing. It's kind of like the, "well, yes, but women attempt suicide much more often" (which is, in itself, a problematic possible woozle. One intrepid citizen journalist dug into the citations, and the only actual statistic he found was that as far as attempts go, for every 5 female attempts there are 4 male ones, and it's unclear to me whether the category of "attempts" included both successful and failed ones, since IIRC, the data was derived from surveys of people who were still alive. If it does not include successful attempts, then men actually attempt suicide more often than women, and complete suicide more often than women).

So, IF society conditions men to be violent, it conditions them to be violent against themselves and other men WAY more than it conditions them to be violent against women. So why even mention DV "femicides"?

The vast majority of male- and female-perpetrated violence is perpetrated on males (this includes infanticide, filicide, bullying, child abuse and corporal punishment of children).

Violence perpetrated by men (or by anyone) against women is the exception to the rule, and may have NOTHING to do with cultural conditioning, given that the majority of anyone-on-female violence occurs in a DV context in which women are just as likely to be abusive and violent as men (something that appears to hold true even in patriarchal cultures like Jordan and Namibia, according to Murray Straus).

IMO, the culture drives men to be violent against men (others and themselves). It conditions men to not only avoid being violent with women, but to commit and absorb violence on behalf of, or at the behest of, women.

I don't think society has changed much in this respect over the last few centuries.

Incidentally, someone emailed me after reading a book about Lizzie Borden. He mentioned a police log from that town that was included in the appendix. Out of 25 total arrests the day Lizzie's parents were killed, 4 were arrests of men for wife beating. In 1890--you know, long before feminists came along in the 1960s to tell us that DV against women is wrong and a crime. In 1904, Theodore Roosevelt (so popular a president he dared to try to be elected for an unprecedented third term) campaigned to bring the whipping post back specifically as a punishment for men who batter their wives (because fining or jailing such men financially punished the wife along with her batterer). The Women's Christian Temperance Union managed to sway public opinion about liquor by putting on local plays demonstrating how the drink made men beat and mistreat their wives.

If there are men who are violent against women, it is not because of cultural conditioning. They exist despite cultural conditioning.

As such, including one of the non-leading causes of female death (DV homicide) in an article about men being driven to violence and suicide by the culture is... well. It just doesn't belong, unless you are thoughtlessly parroting propaganda.

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[–]seego791 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I do not decide masculinity, I decide if I can stomach the person.

I can, and have, shaped the path this very movement has taken.

The philosophy you choose is your own. The goals and characteristics of this movement have been formalized years ago by a large group of mras. If you weren't there to be involved, then you're too late to the party to demand we change to suit you.

And you, 'sir', are most definitely a feminist. Through and through. You are the embodiment of every criticism cast at the MRM by the rest of the manosphere. You and people like you, are the reason men in general will be utterly repulsed by the MRM.

Thankfully, theres the Red Pill they can turn to, and let you mincing sjw weenies continue to complain the world isn't changing to suit your demands.

Fuckin millenials....

[–]seego791 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The guiding principles of a movement or group are the very definition of that group. For example, democrat vs republican is defined by the guiding principles they ostensibly follow. The men's rights movement is no different. If you disagree, feel free. But I am neither taking credit for, nor misleading you about, the guiding principles of this movement. They are not set in stone, but they are not subject to your approval either.

As to your ludicrously straw manned characterization of what The Red Pill is, keep in mind the term is used by both mras and puas, and mgtows, that frequent your rival subredit. The term red pill refers to game theory in large part, has since Hawaiian libertarian wrote that article in 2009, but it has been adopted by the manosphere in general for about 5 years now. If you want to decide that is no longer true, because you said so, well...go nuts I guess.

You don't need my permission, or anyone else's, to claim you are an MRA. You will forever get resistance from me and other longtime mras, because you are ignorant about most of what the MRM is for, and aim to change the rest. But you can call yourself an MRA if you like.

As for the millennial comment, my bad. I just assumed from your demeanour you were a coddled narcissistic whing excuse for a human being... you know, millennial stereotype.... for a reason. I apologize.

[–]seego791 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

my red pill comment was based on my assumption that you were using it in the PUA sense, but you know what they say about assuming, so my bad.

my dissagreement was based on your posts which gave the impression that your ideal of masculinity was the only acceptable one, this is blatantly untrue. men are striding in all directions, both traditional and non traditional. the break down of gender roles is an important feature of this movement. without that we cannot break out of the roles we have been placed in by society or the role given us by feminism.

breaching those roles is up to the person making the choices, i never advocated for forcing that, but you seem to actively push against it. your posts smack of traditionalism and i find that unhelpful. every man should make his choice, and every choice should be accepted, that said you don't have to respect a choice any man makes, but by acting against gender role breakers, you become as harmful as those in the feminist camp who wish to keep us trapped in the role of pantomime villan.

you make your choices, i make mine and everyone else makes theirs. its not up to anyone to decide whats right for someone else.

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]seego791 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh, and I might not be able to decide what's right for you, but I sure as hell can decide if you're a poisonous influence on a movement I spent years working on. And you are. You do not get to 'tolerance' yourself into power here thanks, we've already seen it done enough.

You either agree with the principles of the MRM and are an MRA, or you do not and you are a 5th columnist feminist, or worse, corruption. I live and let live, but ever since 'masculism' collapsed into the pit of male repulsion that it is, too many masculist ideas seem to have become what the MRM is 'about' in certain places. And none of you can point to a website or blog or anything supporting your viewpoint but feminist sites like the Good Mangina Project. That should tell you something.

Instead of insisting the world love you for you, you might want to consider the world would rather just tell you to fuck off, no matter how co spelling your argument. The fact you pearl clutchers can't figure out how to get men interested, and spend all your time split between 'self policing' the MRM for misogyny and bemoaning your peripheral station in society, is not an endorsement for your ability to decide shit for yourself.

[–]seego791 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

the principles of the MRM

"equality for men and boys"

theres nothing of your bullshit here, your a traditionalist, desperately trying to cling to a new movement while your conservatism dies. you can say what you want about me i don't care. call me a mincing pyjama wearer or a pearl clutcher or whatever you want, its meaningless, a loud roar from a toothless dinosaur.

you continually talk about my viewpoint, my only view i gave was that each man decides his masculinity. seems a pretty solid view to me, but since i don't want a return to the good old days i must be a lefty marxist right?

pushing for breaking gender roles for thos who wants helps this movements.

more stay at home dads changes the view of society that we are not nurturers.

more men being vulnerable and sharing their feelings helps get the message out that men need help ands society will oblige with enough work.

men show they have more than one stereotypical sexuality then it helps change the narrative that we are all rapists and subjogaters.

The fact you pearl clutchers can't figure out how to get men interested, and spend all your time split between 'self policing' the MRM for misogyny and bemoaning your peripheral station in society, is not an endorsement for your ability to decide shit for yourself.

the only person policing things in here is you, i want men to make thewir minds up on their own, you want everyone to follow your example or get out. seriously fuck your ridiculous ideas. you act like some gatekeeper to this movement, its not your movement, its our movement, its every men and everyone who cares about men's movement.

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're a binary thinker, moreover you think principles like self sufficiency, freedom of speech/movement, and personal liberty are 'dinosaur' ideas. You believe yourself so evolved you have nothing to learn, that no one before you could have figured it out. That your input is always improvement.

You posit every man decides his own masculinity. I contend the assignment of 'masculine' is not an internal one. You are too dense or bent on being right to even consider that, instead dismissing me with an imposed label. Which is fucking textbook Marxist behavior. 'Masculine' is assigned situationally, and fixating on it is missing the forest for the trees, something you seem particularly adept at.

Pushing for breaking 'gender roles' is a feminist goal, not an MRA one. We instead eschew the 'man up' dogma ( which, I feel compelled to explain, is a narrative of 'be useful to me', not one of 'be more masculine'). This is why half understood ideas are dangerous in the hands of zealots.

And how do you plan on making society accept stay at home dads? Sure, you can 'encourage' it, but what about legal and sexual obstacles? Plan on 'educating' women into finding Mr mom hot are you? And how is that different from feminist social engineering again? Oh yeah, its 'for men'.

More men being vulnerable will increase even more the contempt women have for men, or have you not noticed that? And yeah, its not fear and revulsion of male sexuality at root of that stuff, we just haven't been portrayed as 'gay friendly' enough. Sure thing...

I am policing to some extent, because asshats like you are bringing your bullshit in, acting like its an improvement on something you don't even know about, then claim those who made this thing from fucking scratch are 'dinosaurs'. You think I treat you with disrespect? You don't deserve respect. You're shitting on the very thing you lay claim to, and now you think you're schooling me?

Holy fuck, that's some fucking ego buddy.

[–]seego791 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're a binary thinker, moreover you think principles like self sufficiency, freedom of speech/movement, and personal liberty are 'dinosaur' ideas. You believe yourself so evolved you have nothing to learn, that no one before you could have figured it out. That your input is always improvement.

nope, i just see this movement as a free marketplace of ideas. there is no wrong or right answers. you think you can dictate what it is to be a man, well your free to try and those who disagree can ignore you. i always have something to learn, but i also know that trying to learn, but you have put forward nothing worth teaching. you have not stated what the goals should be, or what you think the philosophy of the movement should be. all i have heard from you is some slightly pathetic attempts to insult me by insinuating i am gay, i find this neither a problem if you assume it, or an insult if you label me as such. also i like how you make assumptions about my political leanings, then again you already got my nationality/location wrong, why not my politics too.

And how do you plan on making society accept stay at home dads? Sure, you can 'encourage' it, but what about legal and sexual obstacles? Plan on 'educating' women into finding Mr mom hot are you? And how is that different from feminist social engineering again? Oh yeah, its 'for men'.

i don't plan on making society do anything, force is the last bastion of an ideology which cannot stand on its own merits. men should do what they choose, the more men who choose to do it the more it becomes part of the fabric of life. though it appears your only value you place on yourself is how many women want to jump on your member, and that makes me sad for you.

More men being vulnerable will increase even more the contempt women have for men, or have you not noticed that? And yeah, its not fear and revulsion of male sexuality at root of that stuff, we just haven't been portrayed as 'gay friendly' enough. Sure thing...

yeah, you got me there, i realise the stiff upper lip ideal is working well for us, look at how the suicide rate and homeless rate and even the domestic violence rate is down for men....oh thats right its not. men need a chance to be vulnerable, to share, to heal themselves. doing things your way hasn't worked in millenia, why is it just going to suddenly work now? as for being gay friendly, i find this place a pretty enlightened place, i have seen acceptance of gay, trans and non whites, its a bastion of acceptance in comparrison to feminist spaces.

I am policing to some extent, because asshats like you are bringing your bullshit in, acting like its an improvement on something you don't even know about, then claim those who made this thing from fucking scratch are 'dinosaurs'. You think I treat you with disrespect? You don't deserve respect. You're shitting on the very thing you lay claim to, and now you think you're schooling me? Holy fuck, that's some fucking ego buddy.

yeah, i haven't been schooled like that since nursery, and as for policing? you have no power, your just a vocalisation of a sad long dead dream held only by a minority. your not about movingt things on for men, your a paper tiger who barks to seem scary but has no intellectual bite to back it up (and yes i know that was ad hominem to an extent, but it was honest also) your the basic red piller, your whole life revolves around what women think, you base any value you have on how many women take you to bed, its laughable and pointless. truely independent thinkers gauge themselves by their peers, not the pussy the get or their "alpha status" .

the only person who is shitting on things would be you, no concrete ideas, no personal or intelectual power, no independent thought, just the regurgitation of buzzwords and arguement long since debunked.

you want to school me then answer me this. what is the future of mens rights? and how will it be acomplished.

[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Jesus you're thick. I'm not dictating to you what it is to be a man. I am telling you that you don't get to say what it is either, that situationally you will either be regarded as masculine or not. You will not be able to 'engineer' what is considered masculine, but you will repel a lot of potential mras in the process. Again, like a typical feminist, you draw conclusions not based on facts in evidence, claiming I think notch count means anything, or that game is 'about' picking up some. That is head in the sand willful ignorance, and its reprehensible in one who contends they are 'the future' or some dumb shit.

Male suicide will not be helped by your brand of feminism for men either, it will merely paint any man who is depressed as 'one of those whiny little fagots' even more. And as for that being 'gay friendly' ask the nearest gay man who they think are 'gay' and who they think are 'fags', the same dynamic plays in the straight world.

You sure are good at dismissing straw men you build, laying claim to superiority and being the future' quite a bit. But to assume I know nothing and have no intellectual faculties is more than a bit fucking stupid, kiddo. Consider, I laid waste to your bullshit as an aside, and you're only rebuttal amounts to 'oh yeah, well Im newer, so I'm the future'.

You're a pathetic empty suit. Fuck off.

[–]seego791 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

i never said what it is to be a man, i was talking about masculinity. a concept which has changed and evolved over millenia. you still refuse to give any examples of what the right way to move mens issues forward, you just continue to say no thats wrong with no further comment.

your post had nothing to do with the differences within the gay community, you simply referenced being gay friendly as if it was a bad thing.

you make so many unsubstantiated claims its amazing, you have yet to substansiate the claims that i am a feminist, that your brand of mens rights is correct or even to list the strawmen you claim i built.

as i said before, i feel sorry for you, but i am sure we can have this conversation lots, because me and my ilk of mens rights is only gonna grow larger, the traditionalist red piller is fading away and is being replaced with reason, logic and forward thinking.

edit, and addition. how about you go fuck yourself, i am beginning to think you are bernard chapin in disguise.

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