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The only thing I disagree with, is her comment further on down about "timing".

If someone is raped... and you go to that person and say "Well you could have done this, and this, or this"... I still don't think that is victim-blaming.

Is it a totally dick thing to do? Yes.

But is it technically correct? Also yes.

If I die in a car accident because I'm not wearing my seatbelt... the last thing I want to hear is "you should have worn your seatbelt", while I'm in the hospital getting my head stitched up... but they still are in fact correct.. I should have been wearing my fucking seat belt.

I know we (at least me especially) always stress the "facts over feelings"... but in this case, presenting the facts doesn't really offer a benefit, so you might as well go with what will offer the best feelings, and just not tell victims what they could have done after the fact.

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If you want to appropriate your advice based on the statistical occurrence of what you are advising against, that is your choice.

I like to talk about the "complete stranger" and "new acquaintance" part of rape talk.

A girl goes out alone with a guy that clearly told her that he wants to have sex with her, they both ingest a beer, they both go back to his place. They enjoy a bottle of vodka. Then he starts kissing her with her consent, and it progresses to boob play and then sex. She doesn't say anything and seems to be enjoying it. Then she cries rape afterwards.

I believe that consent or "a meeting of the minds" can be reached even if alcohol was ingested, and even if nothing verbal is said. A lot of women will agree that the girl was raped. I say that she wasn't.

But lets say that she said no during the sex. If I proceed to say "It's not a good idea to down a bottle of vodka with someone you just met" suddenly I'm a "rape-apologist" and "victim-blamer".

You advice focuses on one aspect of rape, and mine focuses on another.

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[–]vivadisgrazia7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Number of states rapists can sue for custody and visitation ? 31.

4 in 10 take place at the victim's home. 2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative. 1 in 12 take place in a parking garage within a mile of home.

33% of rapes take place between 6:00am and 6:00pm.

source from U.S. Department of Justice. 2005 National Crime Victimization Study. 2005.

In 8 out of 10 or 80% of rape cases, the victim knows the perpetrator . STUDY

Overwhelmingly, rape/sexual assault victims were most likely to be raped/sexually assaulted at home (33.7%) or at or near a friend/relative/neighbor's home (21.3%), than any other location reported.

The location of rapes/sexual assaults committed most by nonstrangers, 45.5% at or in victim's home. 12.6% of rape/sexual assault victimizations by strangers occurred at or in the victim's home, which was slightly more than the occurrence of,at, in or near a friend/neighbor/relative's home (10.9%) or in commercial building or in (9%) a parking lot or garage (8.9%).

study

55% of men who acknowledged committing sexual assault on a date reported being intoxicated at the time of the assault.

The majority of acquaintance rapes are planned in advance by the perpetrator .

90% of group rapes are planned. 58% of single rapes are planned. 75% of all rapes are planned .

Studies Found Here & here

"70% of rapes are planned by the rapist and the rapist will rape again and again, usually in the same area of town and in the same way."

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]vivadisgrazia3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

4 in 10 take place at the victim's home. 2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative. 1 in 12 take place in a parking garage within a mile of home. 33% of rapes take place between 6:00am and 6:00pm.

So a minority of them then?

Do you understand how statistics work? Because if so think about how silly your question/assumption is.

Hint: 40% and 20% are both individually greater than 8%. Additionally it means 6 out of 10 rape victims are raped inside either their home or the home of a friend/relative 60% would not be the minority.

33% of rapes happening between 6am-6pm is more than the 23% which happen from midnight to 6 am.

In 8 out of 10 or 80% of rape cases, the victim knows the perpetrator[2] .

Says nothing about whether they were opportunistic or not.

Isn't befriending or dating a women before raping her part of some sort of premeditation?

Or are you suggesting the frightening idea that 'good' male friends/relatives will rape the women in their lives if given the right opportunity?

But none of these discredit the notion that there are actions that make rape more or less likely.

You asked for studies I provided several. Which dealt with, times of day, types of offenders, premeditation, and likelihood of location.

It all goes to show that the majority of rapes are premeditated, done indoors (most often in the victims home), and that 1/3 of them are during daylight hours.

This is why many of us have issues with the 'stranger in a dark alley' scenerio especially since the same people who use the ' stranger in a dark alley' scenario to tell women to be "safe" get upset and complain about "rape hysteria" anytime someone brings up the much more likely scenerio of 'raped in home by a trusted male acquaintance' and are often the same people who condemn someone like Ms. Watson for being concerned/creeped out about a gent approaching her on a elevator which is still a more legitimately likely scenario for her to be raped than your whole 'stranger in a dark alley' scenario.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Isn't befriending or dating a women before raping her part of some sort of premeditation?

How is premeditation proof that it wasn't also opportunistic?

They seek out women who are likely to act in a certain way and create scenarios where they may.

Inviting a girl to a party that you know will have lot's of alcohol on the hopes she will get pass out drunk (and then using that to rape her if she does) is both premeditated and opportunistic isn't it?

He worked towards a favorable opportunity and she cooperated.

Not so?

This is why many of us have issues with the 'stranger in a dark alley' scenerio especially since the same people who use the ' stranger in a dark alley' scenario to tell women to be "safe" . . . .

I see you've taken sigils straw man and run with it.

Saying there are behaviors that can increase your chances of rape =/= all rape occurs in a literal dark alley.

[–]vivadisgrazia2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How is premeditation proof that it wasn't also opportunistic? They seek out women who are likely to act in a certain way and create scenarios where they may. Inviting a girl to a party that you know will have lot's of alcohol on the hopes she will get pass out drunk (and then using that to rape her if she does) is both premeditated and opportunistic isn't it?

Do you even law?

pre·med·i·ta·tion : to plan or consider 1. The act of speculating, arranging, or plotting in advance; the cognitive process of thinking about what you will do in the event of something happening.

2.(law) thought and intention to commit a crime well in advance of the crime; thoughts and intentions behind a wrongful act (including knowledge that the act is illegal).

The targeting of certain people, the planning of certain activities and certain locations are acts of premediatation.

For further understanding read this

He worked towards a favorable opportunity No he premeditated a crime. Opportunistic=/= work towards

and she cooperated.

If you to want claim women are cooperative in their rapes just because they are friends with men ...then you are literally suggesting that if women want to be non-cooperative they must treat all men like rapists.

You are also literally saying that a rape victim is in collusion with the rapist because she went on a date with a man and dared to assume it was reasonable to treat him like he wasn't a rapist.

And this is just ridiculously ignorant. Disgusting. Vile. Repugnant.

This is why many of us have issues with the 'stranger in a dark alley' scenerio especially since the same people who use the ' stranger in a dark alley' scenario to tell women to be "safe" . . . .

I see you've taken sigils straw man and run with it.

Excuse me? Do you even words?

Expressly explain how it is a strawman. Especially in light of your newest 'cooperation' claims.

Saying there are behaviors that can increase your chances of rape =/= all rape occurs in a literal dark alley.

Now this is a actual strawman. My argument was never even remotely about saying chances of rape = all rape is in a dark alley.

YOUR use of literal is also wrong as we aren't arguing over a rape literally being in a dark alley, but of anywhere outside during night.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you even law?

I don't speak SRS.

What does this mean in people-speak?

pre·med·i·ta·tion : to plan or consider 1. The act of speculating, arranging, or plotting in advance; the cognitive process of thinking about what you will do in the event of something happening. 2.(law) thought and intention to commit a crime well in advance of the crime; thoughts and intentions behind a wrongful act (including knowledge that the act is illegal). The targeting of certain people, the planning of certain activities and certain locations are acts of premediatation.

Fascinating google-search you copied here. But what does this have to do with this thread since I never disputed the definition of premeditation or that it could be at play here?

If you to want claim women are cooperative in their rapes just because they are friends with men ...then you are literally suggesting that if women want to be non-cooperative they must treat all men like rapists.

Good thing I never said any of that. If you had a solid argument you wouldn't need to rely so heavily on strawmen. Consider that.

I do believe I mentioned getting pass-out drunk . . .

You are also literally saying that a rape victim is in collusion with the rapist because she went on a date with a man and dared to assume it was reasonable to treat him like he wasn't a rapist.

No, I never said that.

And this is just ridiculously ignorant. Disgusting. Vile. Repugnant.

You get that straw-bastard!

Excuse me? Do you even words?

More SRS speak.

Assume most of us are not fluent in moron.

Now this is a actual strawman. My argument was never even remotely about saying chances of rape = all rape is in a dark alley.

Actually yeah you kind of did by obsessively going back to this literal dark alley example.

YOUR use of literal is also wrong as we aren't arguing over a rape literally being in a dark alley, but of anywhere outside during night.

I never said outside or night.

Perhaps take a breath, maybe get some coffee, and reread what I actually wrote because whoever you're responding to aint me.

[–]vivadisgrazia0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't speak SRS.

And you don't understand law. Or English.

Fascinating google-search you copied here.

Fascinating I'm sure to those who don't understand law.

But what does this have to do with this thread since I never disputed the definition of premeditation or that it could be at play here?

You did when you stated that a rape can be premeditated and opportunistic at the same time. It can't. You were wrong. Move on.

Good thing I never said any of that. If you had a solid argument you wouldn't need to rely so heavily on strawmen. Consider that. I do believe I mentioned getting pass-out drunk . . .

Yes you mentioned a lot of things.

But once again suggesting that no woman should be drunk or 'pass out drunk' around a man because that's cooperating with them being raped, is saying that women need to treat men like potential rapists and not trust them to be around if they aren't conscious. If Women who get drunk around friends expecting not to get raped are held as cooperative in their rapes for daring to act the same, and get drunk, around male friends your working from the position that women must treat men like potential rapists not real friends.

No, I never said that.

You did.

And this is just ridiculously ignorant. Disgusting. Vile. Repugnant.

You get that straw-bastard!

So you agree that the critical conclusion is a horrible thing. Good to know. Maybe you'll connect the dots and stop asserting that women have to treat all men like rapists.

Excuse me? Do you even words? More SRS speak.

So is SRS short for internet in your world of marginal literacy which is devoid of critical thinking skills?

Assume most of us are not fluent in moron.

Speaking of morons not being fluent... I understand you see big words like strawman being used by others who have a very marginal understanding of it so you might be tempted to use the term to prove how intellectual you are by using it whenever you think you have a chance, but it helps to understand the words you use. And misusing the word actually causes the exact opposite effect, people will find your intellectual ability lacking so Please explain how my criticism of your line of thinking is actually a strawman.

Actually yeah you kind of did by obsessively going back to this literal dark alley example.

I used ' ' also in my statistics I gave numbers for outside rapes vs indoor rapes and day time rapes vs nighttime rapes. It's not a fault of my argument that you didn't understand the use of '' or the application of statistics.

I never said outside or night.

Oh 'dark alleys by strangers' are indoors and in the daylight? No you aren't fluent in moron at all. /s

Perhaps take a breath, maybe get some coffee, and reread what I actually wrote because whoever you're responding to aint me.

It is. Instead of giving useless and unwanted advice please properly address criticisms I have presented against your argument.

Explain how women who won't/don't act differently just because they are in the company of a man makes them cooperative in being raped isn't based on the presumption that women should treat all men like they are rapists.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh and I thought you said you weren't fluent in moron.

I've becoming more fluent the longer I spend in this conversation.

Immersion is the best way to learn a new language.

The biggest difference is, and this might shock you, women and their bodies aren't objects.

A) Irrelevent in this scenario. And B) untrue.

ob·ject [n. ob-jikt, -jekt; v. uhb-jekt] Show IPA noun

anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form.
a thing, person, or matter to which thought or action is directed: an object of medical investigation.

So I ask again please explain how women who won't/don't act differently just because they are in the company of a man makes them cooperative in being raped isn't based on the presumption that women should treat all men like they are rapists.

Explain how acting differently when in the presence of humans to prevent crime doesn't assume that all humans are criminals?

If I were the last human on earth I probably wouldn't bother to lock my car.

I am not, so I do.

Does this mean I assume that every human on earth will take advantage of the opportunity an unlocked car would provide them for thievery?

You'll get it eventually. Just give it time.

[–]vivadisgrazia1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I've becoming more fluent the longer I spend in this conversation.

I am glad you also noticed how your argument has been progressively getting more moronic.

Immersion is the best way to learn a new language.

Well you've certainly drowned this conversation in your moronicness.

The biggest difference is, and this might shock you, women and their bodies aren't objects.

A) Irrelevent in this scenario.

Ahahahaha exactly why would it be irrelevant to the scenario? It's very relevant because your argument is based on a false analogy !

And B) untrue. ob·ject [n. ob-jikt, -jekt; v. uhb-jekt] 2. a thing, person, or matter to which thought or action is directed: an object of medical investigation.

Nice attempt at equivocation. Apparently you have problems understanding words. Your example says people can be objects in/of a study. Not that they ARE objects. Try harder.

Comparing a woman and her behavior around men, to how you would treat a car and trying to defend that as a legitimate argument is alarmingly obtuse.

If you honestly can't see the difference maybe it's time you seek help. There is treatment .

If I were the last human on earth I probably wouldn't bother to lock my car. I am not, so I do. Does this mean I assume that every human on earth will take advantage of the opportunity an unlocked car would provide them for thievery? You'll get it eventually. Just give it time.

Yes

and on this level it highlights the paranoid underpinning of your thought process.

So I ask again please explain how women who won't/don't act differently just because they are in the company of a man makes them cooperative in being raped isn't based on the presumption that women should treat all men like they are rapists.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And B) untrue. ob·ject [n. ob-jikt, -jekt; v. uhb-jekt] 2. a thing, person, or matter to which thought or action is directed: an object of medical investigation.

Out of curiosity what did you think you achieve by editing my statement when quoting it?

So I ask again please explain how women who won't/don't act differently just because they are in the company of a man makes them cooperative in being raped isn't based on the presumption that women should treat all men like they are rapists.

I'm curious how many times I'm expected to repeat the same answer before you are satisfied? I'm suspecting that number approaches infinite.

Either way the number of times I will repeat it is very finite.

I have answered your silly question.

You are quite clearly in the wrong, hence the personal attacks and rewording of my quotes. The sad part is you realize it but your pride won't let you admit it.

[–][deleted]5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The stat you quoted was about a college study looking only at date-rape.

How does this prove most of all total rapes are not-opportunistic?

When you subtract date and acquaintance rape and child rape from the rape stats, you don't have very many rapes left and out of those, an even smaller number would fit your hollywood movie image of how rapes happen - hapless female wanders down dark alley in a short skirt etc.

You're making claims again without stats.

Also the dark alley is a metaphor. Perhaps you were confused in thinking this logic only applies to literal dark alleys. As opposed to say poorly lit back streets or dim pathways.

Do you maybe see the limitations of basing your impression of rape on hollywood movies and myths rather than data?

What data?

You've presented a claim that 6% of college aged men in one study commit most of the date rape on campuses. That in no way disproves the notion that most rapes (which do occur off-campus from time to time by non-college students) are opportunistic in nature.

It doesn't even disprove that most date-rapists are opportunistic.

Those studies you're referencing even specifically point out that most of the victims are young and inexperienced and vastly overconsume alcohol since they aren't experienced with drinking.

Overconsuming alcohol is a behavior that enables this. If they didn't do that at least some of these rapes wouldn't occur.

Your own narrow study that doesn't really apply here refuted your point.

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[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No. That's not according to me.

Your entire argument here has been that there is nothing a woman could do differently to lessen her chance for rape.

Since she has no control over it how could you give her advice?

That's like giving people advice on how to win the lottery.

Doesn't make any sense.

Unless of course you do believe there are thing she could do to lessen her chances of being raped.

Of course then you are a rape supporter.

According to me, mra's usually have no idea what they are talking about when they get involved in rape prevention

What kind of rape prevention are you talking about? Elaborate.

rape culture debate

Snicker.

We don't know a lot about unicorns either . . .

usually frame rape and their prevention advice in myths about rape.

So far you've been the one pushing myths.

[–][deleted]2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm here as a mens rights activist not a rape prevention activist, law enforcement or parent to women, and I don't believe that women are children, they can manage their own risk like I do.

Nice hedge.

So there are no actions that a woman can take to minimize her risks then?

You don't know what it is or entails is so you cannot make that call.

Funny how the only ones permitted to critique feminist notions are feminists (according to feminists).

This isn't physics. It's a matter of opinion. Anyone is qualified to discuss it.

Yeah, you clearly don't understand what rape culture theory says or entails yet you are prepared to argue about it on the internet.

More boilerplate women's studies rhetoric. Unless you are knowledgeable you can't comment. Knowledgeable is defined as having the same opinion I have.

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[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not refusing to define the term, I'm pointing out that you have no idea what the term means and so when you argue about it its a waste of time. It would be better to learn what it is, and then deconstruct it from there. The way you disproved was by creating a strawman and destroying that, which isn't really of any use if you want to debunk it, unless your objective is to debunk yourself.

This would be a good definition of it as it applies to western countries.

Basically, "rape culture" describes a culture where there are widespread ideas and beliefs and attitudes that make rape more likely to happen. (Notice that's different from people actually thinking rape in theory is okay.) Not everybody who believes those things or lives in such a culture is a rapist, but those ideas work to make sexual violence more prevalent. Now, different feminist theorists would disagree about exactly what ideas contribute to rape culture (and not every feminist agrees that it's a useful paradigm at all), but here's some examples:

The idea that women who wear short skirts or drink beer with guys or agree to visit a guy's room are "asking for it" is part of rape culture, because it suggests that it's more okay to disregard the explicit consent of women who act in certain ways.
Jokes about prison rape are a part of rape culture, because they suggest that men who commit crimes should expect to be raped as part of their punishment, and that society should approve of it and laugh about it.
The idea that the male libido is constantly dialed up to 11 is a part of rape culture, because it suggests that men can't be expected to control themselves, so it's the responsibility of women to avoid presenting them with temptation.
The idea that the male libido is constantly dialed up to 11 is a part of rape culture, because it suggests that men by definition are always consenting partners, so that forcing sex on a man can't be rape.
The idea that good girls should "play hard to get" is a part of rape culture, because it suggests that women who say no might really want you to keep pressuring them. Saying stuff like "Dude I raped those guys in Halo 2" can be considered a part of rape culture, because it both trivializes rape and reinforces the view that rape can be an act of domination to take pride in.

There are ways to deconstruct it, but we will never know what they are so long as mras refuse to even learn the basics of what it is.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nope. Nothing in the definition says it has to be always increasing.

You tried to tie an increase in those things you listed to an increase in rape. These are words that you typed or copy-pasted. So to make this a valid theory you must show that, for instance, an increase in jokes about prison rape lead to an increase in actual rapes. Or vice-versa.

Otherwise it's just someone's opinion. An actual scientific theory ought to have evidence backing it other than op-ed pieces.

According to that definition, the less people believe that people wearing x and doing y are asking to be raped, the more rape will decrease.

Ok, so demonstrate this trend.

In the west, there has been a lot of activism to change peoples attitudes in this regard, which correlates with the decrease in rape you are talking about.

And yet feminists have made the opposite claim. We have access to far more pornography now (which is part of rape culture) than ever before. And yet it's on the decline.

Also you have made no attempt to sort out the myriad other factors that have changed since 1950.

Rape culture isn't a theory. It's an opinion, a feeling. If it were a theory they'd have made at least some effort to find evidence supporting it, even falsifying statistics as they are wont to do (5/4s of college aged women were raped as I typed this).

But they haven't even done that. They've made a statement that they feel to be true and then supported it by attacking anyone who doubts them.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not saying that their theory is 100% correct although some of the logic I can't fault. I'm just explaining to you what it is. It works in my favour, if mra's know what rape culture is and deconstruct it from there. Instead of whats presently happening (having no idea what it is but arguing about it anyway).

Ok, so demonstrate this trend

I'm saying that according to their definitions and theory, the more present the belief that women that are doing x, y and z are asking to be raped in a culture, the more likely women are going to be to get raped because of unconscious suggestions that its more ok to rape someone if they are behaving x, y and z.

You presented the fact that rapes are decreasing to debunk their theory ... but that doesn't work, because rapes are decreasing along with mentalities and beliefs along the lines of women that do x,y and z are asking to be raped in the west.

In the east, you still get a lot of justifying rapes because of the behaviour of the victim.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not saying that their theory is 100% correct although some of the logic I can't fault.

It's not even a theory as no attempt was made to test it.

It's a feeling.

Saying diehard 3 was the greatest movie ever made is an opinion, not a scientific theory.

Rape culture is like that.

I'm just explaining to you what it is.

Also you were using it to argue your points.

It works in my favour, if mra's know what rape culture is and deconstruct it from there.

If you pay attention you'll see that all of this gets taken apart at one time or another. The differences are A) we don't necessarily label all these false hoods as rape theory and B) we don't agree with them.

Instead of whats presently happening (having no idea what it is but arguing about it anyway).

Rape theory is, from your own copy and pasting, an absurd set of lies.

Why should we address it as if it were some real thing put forth by serious people?

I'm saying that according to their definitions and theory, the more present the belief that women that are doing x, y and z are asking to be raped in a culture, the more likely women are going to be to get raped because of unconscious suggestions that its more ok to rape someone if they are behaving x, y and z.

So demonstrate this trend.

If A causes B then an increase in A should cause an increase in B, or a decrease should cause a decrease in the other.

Not so?

So demonstrate that an increase in any of those things you mentioned is actually linked to an increase in rape (or decrease) by citing statistics, not simply repeating the claims over and over again.

You presented the fact that rapes are decreasing to debunk their theory ... but that doesn't work, because rapes are decreasing along with mentalities and beliefs along the lines of women that do x,y and z are asking to be raped in the west.

You can demonstrate that these are decreasing in concert and that one is causing the other?

In the east, you still get a lot of justifying rapes because of the behaviour of the victim.

Aren't 3/5s of college aged women supposed to be raped according to feminists? They keep bouncing the number around there but it's something like that.

This would either mean that A) colleges are breading grounds for rape culture thus making colleges horribly unsafe for women or B) women are raped at even higher rates outside of college (approaching 100% it would seem).

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You can demonstrate that these are decreasing in concert and that one is causing the other?

As I said, I only brought up this correlation because you seemed to believe that the fact that rapes are decreasing debunks ideas and theories along the lines of

if the belief that when women do x, y are z, they are asking to be raped is strong in the culture, rapes of women are more likely to happen because some people rationalize it in the belief she was asking it.
if we depict rape as strangers in dark alleys all the time, when in reality most rapists are friends and family members ... it obscures the reality and so enables rapes to happen more freely.

Which it does not, if anything there is a correlation between the decrease in rape, and increase of feminist rape activism, Don't strawman this again please.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't have to take it on faith that misdirection and suggestion are real things and that if drivers are warned to only look out for aircraft on the road, they are more likely to miss a car that might be veering into them and this sort of reasoning.

Your argument is that by telling them to look out for anything we are blaming them if they get in a wreck, which is the worst crime imaginable.

As well as that, its not my theory. Its just something you should know about before you argue about, so you don't look foolish.

I love how feminists act as if their theories are so complex and deep that only they can understand them. This false sense of superiority is so . . . adorable.

The reason it isn't discussed in depth much here is that it is idiotic. There is nothing to it. It doesn't take years of study and debate to understand that someone holds this opinion.

We get it, you feel that some hypothetical person saying women shouldn't wear short skirts (not something that was brought up here by the way) will lead to an increase in rapes. You also feel you have no need to prove any of this and that we should accept it on faith.

I get all that. What I don't understand is why you feel this needs an explanation beyond "I feel X"? Or why you think this is in anyway complicated.

It's like going to an in depth analysis on why you think broccoli is gross because the person you're talking to "just doesn't get" your broccoli-theory because he insists that he doesn't feel that way about it.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not a feminist, stop with the strawman.

I'm simply explaining to you what their rape culture theory says, because prior to this, you were arguing about it, with no understanding of what it actually entails and so appeared foolish, you are an mra right? You are supposed to know what its about.

theories are so complex and deep that only they can understand them

I didn't explain anything complex or deep.

There is nothing complex or deep about

If most rapists are friends and family members but we act like rapists are all shady characters in dark alleys it enables rape by keeping most of it hidden. This has the same logic as a simple magic trick.

or

If you suggest that women that wear y and do x are asking to be raped, it increases the chances of someone acting on that suggestion - pretty straight forward.

Those theories are pretty simple to grasp.

One is about misdirection, the other is about suggestion.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, you have come full circle and reissued your first strawman that preceded me showing you this

Basically, "rape culture" describes a culture where there are widespread ideas and beliefs and attitudes that make rape more likely to happen. (Notice that's different from people actually thinking rape in theory is okay.) Not everybody who believes those things or lives in such a culture is a rapist, but those ideas work to make sexual violence more prevalent. Now, different feminist theorists would disagree about exactly what ideas contribute to rape culture (and not every feminist agrees that it's a useful paradigm at all), but here's some examples: The idea that women who wear short skirts or drink beer with guys or agree to visit a guy's room are "asking for it" is part of rape culture, because it suggests that it's more okay to disregard the explicit consent of women who act in certain ways. Jokes about prison rape are a part of rape culture, because they suggest that men who commit crimes should expect to be raped as part of their punishment, and that society should approve of it and laugh about it. The idea that the male libido is constantly dialed up to 11 is a part of rape culture, because it suggests that men can't be expected to control themselves, so it's the responsibility of women to avoid presenting them with temptation. The idea that the male libido is constantly dialed up to 11 is a part of rape culture, because it suggests that men by definition are always consenting partners, so that forcing sex on a man can't be rape. The idea that good girls should "play hard to get" is a part of rape culture, because it suggests that women who say no might really want you to keep pressuring them. Saying stuff like "Dude I raped those guys in Halo 2" can be considered a part of rape culture, because it both trivializes rape and reinforces the view that rape can be an act of domination to take pride in.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are very dishonest.

I showed you that because you strawman'd their theory by claiming that the fact we punish rapists and don't celebrate rape debunks their theory - that's the exact same reason I showed it to you the day before yesterday. The fact that we punish rapists and frown on rape doesn't debunk their theory, if you think that it does, you don't know what their theory says.

If you don't know what this theory says or doesn't say you can't debunk it, you can only attack a strawman which is what you keep doing here, and in the process make mra's look uninformed about their own topics and rape culture theory more credible.

Stop pretending that you don't understand the concept of know what you're talking about, please.

You can debunk it by showing for example, that when Muslim clerics teach a culture that women that wear x and go y at x time are asking to be raped and responsible for their own rapes, they are not putting out the conscious and/or unconscious suggestion that its more ok to rape women that are wearing x, going y at x time, or by finding some other claim they are actually making and debunking that. Your strawpersons are useless.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]YouDislikeMyOpinion1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think that there is a very prominent misunderstanding that occurs with the issue of "victim-blaming", which is akin to a logical fallacy. This in turn introduces misinformation into the public opinion, after which point disinformation also begins to propagate, with the final result being the confusion we have today.

Victim blaming according to wikipedia [SOURCE] occurs when the victim(s) of a crime, an accident, or any type of abusive maltreatment are held entirely or partially responsible for the transgressions committed against them

For victim-blaming to occur, the victim must be held at least partially responsible for what happened.

Lets take a look at the definition of responsibility:

Responsibility is a huge word with many definitions and interpretations. I chose the following definition because of it's ease to be interpreted.

Responsibility according to the Free Dictionary is [SOURCE]:

Something for which one is responsible; a duty, obligation, or burden.

Lets throw in one of the most popular examples that are used in debates about rape. The woman in a dark alley. A woman walks down an alley with a very tight dress on and high heels. A man grabs her from behind and takes her behind a trash can and rapes her.

Is she responsible for the rape?

Does she have a duty to not get raped? Maybe to herself, otherwise no, she can do as she pleases. It is legal to be raped.
Does she have an obligation to not get raped? Maybe to herself, otherwise no, she can do as she pleases. It is legal to be raped.
Does she have a burden in any way shape or form to not get raped? Maybe, it depends on how you look at it. She may have a burden not to hurt her family or friends by introducing this into their lives. But all of this directly depends on if she feels that she has a burden.

If a person proceeds to tell her or someone else that it's not a good idea to drink half a bottle of vodka at a guy's house that she met earlier that night, is that victim-blaming?

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The research does do that. It showed that most of the date rapes are planned out over time and not some spontaneous event.

Ok, again pointing out that this study was ONLY looking at date rapists and ONLY looking at college students so it is not a broadly applicable study.

Either way they groomed these ladies be finding ones that would behave in a certain way and created and environment to facilitate that.

So there were behaviors involved by the victims that enabled this behavior.

When you subtract CSA, acquaintance and date rapes from the rape stats, that leaves very few rapes left.

Because statistics!

Did you notice that you make many mathematical claims but never provide evidence for them?

The idea that rapes are generally as you imagine them, is called a myth because it is a myth.

Actually your argument is kind of working against itself.

You're claiming most rapes have nothing to do with force. Ok so he doesn't just grab some random girl. Instead he finds a situation where he doesn't have to force her.

That clearly illustrates that there are situations that rapists prefer.

And since he isn't kidnapping her and taking her there these are situations these women choose (at least part and initially).

Meaning they could also not-choose them.

Meaning these are crimes of opportunities and some could be prevented by the victims acting differently.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you take the overall rape stats, and subtract all the date rapes, and csa. There are very few rapes left, never mind the imaginary senseless woman in a short skirt wandering down a dark alley for no apparent reason scenario.

Most of the rapes that happen, are not some spontaneous event triggered by a short skirt or a wander down a dark alley. To pretend that they are, is like pretending that most muggings are triggered by driving at night.

Anyhow we are not women daddies or mras can stop rape by teaching women how to act in the first place.

Did you notice that you make many mathematical claims but never provide evidence for them?

Why don't you drop in the /r/mensrightslinks and look at a the stats yourself instead of wasting both our time by talking out of your ass here?

Why would you even bother arguing about something you dont know about in the first place?. I'm tired of mras just talking out of the asses about rape.

edited - insult

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you take the overall rape stats, and subtract all the date rapes, and csa. There are very few rapes left

Yes I remember from before when you repeated this same thing over and over.

But I didn't ask you to simply repeat it some more. I asked for a source.

Which you have so far refused to provide. So I will assume you have none and disregard this claim as merely your opinion rather than any sort of a fact.

never mind the imaginary senseless woman in a short skirt wandering down a dark alley for no apparent reason scenario.

Because that is literally the only scenario I am discussing.

Saying rapists are opportunistic like every other criminal is saying that they only rape in this exact scenario you spelled out.

Totally.

Most of the rapes that happen, are not some spontaneous event triggered by a short skirt or a wander down a dark alley.

Most, according to you, occur when the woman has been drinking heavily. Not drugged. Just getting herself drunk.

This is a behavior is it not?

To pretend that they are, is like pretending that most muggings are triggered by driving at night.

Driving in certain parts of town, with your windows down, at certain hours will certain make you more likely to get mugged.

In every other scenario this is common sense.

Only when it comes to rape is it reformed to become victim hating.

[–][deleted]2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

/r/mensrightslinks[1]

That is just a step better than citing google.

Which link in that should I look at to find that "subtract all the date rapes, and csa. There are very few rapes left"

I work of the incorrect assumption that mra's that chose to argue about rape and rape culture, know what they are talking about.

We tend to like things to be proven here, rather than simply asserted. Especially since so many feminists lies have been asserted in the past and given wide acceptance (did you know that DV spikes after the Superbowl and women get 75 cents for every dollar a man does while doing the exact same job?).

No, victim blaming happens with many crimes - particularly when its a man being victimized by woman.

Er, what?

No, only when it comes to rape is advice seen as victim blaming.

Don't leave your car unlocked isn't considered victim blaming.

Don't give strangers your social security number isn't either.

Why argue about victim blaming when you know nothing about it?

This is kind of sad. At what point did you realize your argument had fallen apart?

[–][deleted]2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh fuck off you idiot, don't waste my time by arguing with me about things you don't have basic information on.

This is a pretty common fall back for your ilk.

When you get trounced just announce that no one knows enough to even question you and storm off.

Let me guess: to have a valid opinion on this I'd have to be a womyn's studies major?

People victim blame men that are victimized by women. Sharon Osborne is the most well known example in these circles. When men are victimised by women, people start focusing in on what the man must have done.

Yes, this is legitimate victim blaming.

Saying that crime victims could act differently to avoid being a victim is not.

Your stupid analogies about locking doors and so on dont work. Locking doors is a line of defence, like knowing self defence and or carrying mace.

Modifying any behavior to make yourself safer is a line of defense.

Not drinking random opened drinks you find at the bar is a line of defense.

Not passing out among a bunch of guys you just met is a line of defense.

You mean like asking it? Tell us what you think female rape victims do that is the equivelant of giving out your social security numbner

Getting pass out drunk is a good one.

I know that you probably believe every last one was drugged. But in fact most of these sort of rapes do not involve any drug other than ethanol.

And they weren't being forced at gunpoint to drink to this excess.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are being an idiot arguing about rape when you don't know the circumstances most of it happens in.

You notice I've never denied that date rape occurs frequently?

You're the one throwing out the "all rape occurs by force in a dark alley" strawman. I've never said it.

So yes, your strawman is quite wrong. But then, aren't they always?

Also rape prevention isn't our gig at all. We should have a seperate /r/mrascanteachwomenhownottogetraped area for it.

So now you're opposed to rape prevention?

There is a clear difference between paternalist men telling women they should't leave the house because it increases the risk of the house being broken into and focusing on the fact that they left the house therefore increasing risk when their house is broken into, and advising all people to lock their doors.

And here's what it really comes down to. You don't like men having an opinion on this. Or even expressing statistics you don't care for.

Because of course men are never rape victims . . .

Also your two scenarios really aren't that different.

You can't say "don't forget to lock your house or else thieves might get in" without implying to people who have done that that they shouldn't have.

[–][deleted]0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics-7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

x-post from r/2x on the difference between "victim blaming" and "rapist blaming". I have but one upvote to give to her, but maybe you guys have some too.

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