Y'all's thoughts on th'term "toxic masculinity"?

[–]fengpi 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago* (84 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure what those excessive apostrophes are supposed to be about, but whatever.

My thoughts? When you ask the people who love using that phrase (it came out of online discussions among the rank-and-file feminists and got adopted by feminist intellectuals rather than the other way around) to describe how they would envision non-toxic masculinity, they basically end up describing women. Or, at the very least, the "toxic" aspects of masculinity are those which are not subordinate to women's needs.

Additionally, the "toxic masculine" items are not similarly treated when manifesting in, say, butch lesbians or Islamic fundamentalists or female teachers who rape underage students.

Finally, I've seen feminists claim that "toxic masculinity" is no longer toxic in situations where it suddenly becomes convenient to their purposes. Then the absence of "toxic masculinity" becomes heinous. So, for instance, enduring pain in stoic silence is "toxic masculinity" but when that stoicism is dropped, the same people scream about men being fucking crybabies and that's apparently even worse than being toxically stoic.

These people don't ever think, they just react to feelings and point fingers about the complaint du jour.

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[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Let's see if I can guess a few more things that you'd agree with?

Just to recap: "There is no masculinity without toxicity, just gender-neutral stuff." BAM! I scored a direct hit there, yeah? You're nodding along with me now, I assume? Oh good. I feel like we're close friends. We know each other's thoughts.

Or: "One major difference between men and women is that men are toxic." Oh, I bet you agree with that one! Did I hit the nail on the head? Do I get a thumbs up? I bet I do. Oh you totally agree with me. It's perfectly in-line with everything else you've said to me so far.

Or maybe: "If a woman does something toxic, she learned it from watching men or from male-dominated society." You agree with that one, right? That's the gospel truth, isn't it! Oh yeah. We're finding so much common ground now. Women only do the toxic stuff that men and male-dominated society tell them to do, after all!

Or how about: "A non-toxic man is a woman with a penis." That's another bulls-eye, right? Oh yes you have to agree with that one! There's no way you can argue against that.

Let's go for the throat: "Masculinity has no purpose apart from torturing and oppressing women." Too crude? I don't think so. Not for you!

I feel like we're best buddies now!

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"There is no masculinity without toxicity, just gender-neutral stuff."

Sorta.

"One major difference between men and women is that men are toxic."

Errrrrrr.

"If a woman does something toxic, she learned it from watching men or from male-dominated society."

If a women in a male-dominated society does something toxic she likely learned it from said society, same with a man in a male-dominated society.

"A non-toxic man is a woman with a penis."

Errrrrrr.

"Masculinity has no purpose apart from torturing and oppressing women."

It may've in the past been used to oppress women, but it has no real purpose, much like religion it exists because the last generation had it & they had it because the generation before them had it & they had it because the generation before them had it & on & on & on.

[–]fengpi1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

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[–]fengpi1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's close enough to what you believe. But I didn't fill up my statement with unnecessary filler, flab and unneeded padding as you so often do in what resembles an attempt to sound more intelligent and authoritative than you really are. That's probably how you wrote your college papers, though. But you're a poor writer, aren't you? You struggled with essays for a long time? Your teachers might have mentioned that to you on a few occasions, yeah? Does that sound familiar to you when I say you're not a very good writer? I bet it does.

You seem like you're barely through college, eh? I have no idea. But you can't be very far out of college, owing to the general lack of knowledge that you seem to possess, nonetheless spiced-up with the pretenses of having an understanding of words that you obviously have little to no fucking clue about, in the style of a true Dunning-Kruger twit with poorly developed metacognitive skills.

Here, read this. Then go look in the mirror because that is definitely you.

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]fengpi 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago* (19 children) | Copy Link

Okay, so you know "toxic masculinity." What do you call the tiny remainder of masculinity when you remove the toxic bits? "Non-toxic masculinity"? And what's left of masculinity after you've removed the toxic parts? Is there anything in the non-toxic masculinity that isn't also present in femininity?

Because, if I may be so bold as to state my predictions: your non-toxic masculinity will be gender neutral. Am I right? Am I correct? That the non-toxic masculinity is not really "masculinity" in your view, but good gender-neutral traits that can apply equally to both sexes? Yeah? Am I getting close? Am I near the bulls eye now?

In my experience, people like you have no problem listing-off the traits of masculinity that you don't like, but when you get asked about the positive traits? The response has a lot of "Uhm...er... uhm... umh... err.... uh..." and it's hard for you to find the words. It's just a hunch I have about you, bucko.

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

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ahh yes. toxic masculinity can only appear in men, unless that woman was raised as a man, but that woman was always a woman on the inside, I mean, physically, their brain was a womans, but it was poisoned because we were raising the woman as a man and the woman was always a woman except we tried to raise her as a man which caused all the problems but when a man was raised as a woman they gained toxic masculinity by becoming a man because women are not bad and this was always a man so when we tried to raise the man as a woman, there was nothing wrong, but because they are now exhibiting toxic masculinity it means that.... of course, they were a man with a mans brain in a womans body, but they were ACTUALLY being raised as a man that caused the toxic masculinity to take hold.

so as any person with half a brain, also known as a mans brain, lol, Men or women being raised as men is the problem. I don't see how I can make it any simpler.

sarcasm off

[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]iammesowhoareyou 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Men and women totally start with the same brain, except women are way smarter. And then they get raised differently and that causes the toxic masculamanatee to burrow inside men's brains! And women's totally smarter brains become morally superior, too!

Who is responsible? Why men are! And society! Men and society! Society and men! Those are the culprits! Women are present-- they're burdened with raising their evil sons-- but they're nothing but ghostly 3-inch beings with zero impact on how that vile toxic masculargarrbl gets into their own sons' heads. Society is using women like puppets when they raise their own sons.

It's the fault of society. And the fault of men. They do that vile trick. Society and men! Men! And! Society!! Men and society should change-- or perhaps society and men should change?-- only then can women's power and agency be fully recognized as the awesome social force that it is!

We can't say something wicked like "men and women disseminate toxic masculinity," that would be a sinful abomination in the eyes of Feminist Jesus!

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]fengpi 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Because just about all of mens' problems on a societal level trace (often very directly) back to toxic masculinity.

I see! Fascinating. Oh my that's profound. And you reached this hard but factual conclusion from the opinioneering of your Gender Studies 101 textbook, no doubt.

Most of the ones that can be said to be a result of womens' demands on men could also be said to be a result of society's demands on men,

Ohh, society. I see! Hmm. Society does that. Ohh, Fascinating. That explains it. My my, that is deep. Women don't make demands upon men-- mothers don't really affect their children-- only society and men ever make demands upon men. But mostly men. Women's demands are subsumed by the demands of "society," so women's demands are zero percent of the whole, yes? Yes? Zero percent? Not half? Zero? Good. I hope so. It would be terribly sexist to suggest that it's more than zero.

And tell me-- I consider this truly vital-- do you think this is the first time that I've ever encountered this same bullshit nonsense that you're mindlessly parroting at me?

See, you asked what I thought about "toxic masculinity" early on-- and I told you what I thought early on-- but now you're just making appeals to something that I said I don't really accept. You brushed aside any objections I had, they don't matter, they're bullshit, your concept is correct.

Yet it is a concept that you are not even prepared to define in a succinct way(!)

I am to accept this faith-based sociological twaddle as if there's something suddenly fresh and new and compelling about it.

You wanna know why I don't accept it? Because people like you just act like high-handed missionaries. You go into the jungle to convert the stupid savages who haven't accepted your One True God, The Only One True God. And you can't even coherently explain this One True God, but we have to nod and agree anyway.

We're not gonna drink your Kool Aid, dork.

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Before I begin ripping this to shreds I'd like to say that you've been nothing but a fucking asshole to me despite the fact that I 'be been way nicer to you than I have with just about anyone else I've argued with.

I see! Fascinating. Oh my that's profound.

Is that a rude way of asking for examples or are you just laughing at me?

And you reached this hard but factual conclusion from the opinioneering of your Gender Studies 101 textbook, no doubt.

This is actually an opinion that I've reached by following a list of my other opinions to their logical conjoint conclusions, & I don't even know what Gender Studies are say for the fact that right-wingers really hate them.

Society does that.

Yes, for example you might say that women expect men to be strong, but men also expect men to be strong & really that's because society in general expects men to be strong.

Women don't make demands upon men-- mothers don't really affect their children-- only society and men ever make demands upon men. But mostly men.

Strawman.

Women's demands are subsumed by the demands of "society," so women's demands are zero percent of the whole, yes? Yes? Zero percent? Not half? Zero? Good. I hope so. It would be terribly sexist to suggest that it's more than zero.

This is the third time you've made this argument.

And tell me-- I consider this truly vital-- do you think this is the first time that I've ever encountered this same bullshit nonsense that you're mindlessly parroting at me?

No you.

Yet it is a concept that you are not even prepared to define in a succinct way(!)

Bullshit, here look I'll define it: toxic masculinity is the aspects of (the social construct of) masculinity that are considered to be toxic, meaning that they are damaging to men & the people around them, eg. most statements beginning with "real men".

Because people like you just act like high-handed missionaries. You go into the jungle to convert the stupid savages who haven't accepted your One True God

You don't need to go searching for condescension like that, just look in a mirror.

And you can't even coherently explain this One True God

Are you talking about toxic masculinity or feminism?, because I can pretty easily define both.

We're not gonna drink your Kool Aid, dork.

No you.

[–]fengpi4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]fengpi2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes.

Did you throw up in your mouth as you typed that? Did you feel pain? It was a truly unpleasant thing to think, wasn't it?

I'm sorry I use more accurate terms like society & culture, does it offend you that I don't always explicitly call out women for creating it?

They're also vague, meaningless terms-- not more accurate-- if you use them in the way that you do. As anyone who ever actually studies "society" and "culture" would know. And you clearly don't. You're using "society" as a way to avoid saying "women." That's why. You say "society" so as to not say "women." But you have no problem saying "men" when assigning blame for things. You're conspicuously avoiding "women" where responsibility is concerned, so you say SOCIETY and you pretend it's more accurate when it's just an obvious dodge.

How can you talk about society when you apparently don't even know how vague a term that it is, you Dunning-Kruger moron you?

You say "society" and "culture" to avoid saying "women". But you have no problem saying "men" in the same context. Heh. And when you do say "women", you feel compelled to ironize the sentence because you can't accept it. This verbal tic of yours amuses me greatly. It amuses me to no end. Oh yes.

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Oh I see, so the thing is that feminists have been working against toxic femininity since, well, basically since they've existed, & I think as with many things in life there are a variety of factors that, individually, explain nothing but together make sense as a reason: - the ways in which gender roles for men & women are different can often make it seem much more imposed when on women - toxic femininity has gone by other names like "harmful gender roles" because that's basically what feminism sets out to do, is destroy harmful gender roles - the term likely evolved the way it did because feminists first focused (& still do focus) on gender roles for women (because gender roles place men as dominant) - some feminists do actually use the term - once it was picked up by the manosphere that basically ruined it There are probably other factors but there are most of them.

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[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Look feminists talk endlessly about the subtle influence of language.

You could find a hundred women's studies dissertations on why fireman instead of fireperson is devastating to young girls interested in a career in fireputtingouting.

The fact that they chose to label male gender roles toxic masculinity and female gender roles internalized misogyny inherent to living under the Patriarchy is very deliberate and what they're doing is quite obvious.

Tell you what, let's start two lists.

I'll compile all the terms that feminists have coined/popularized that are negative and male gendered. You do the same for negative female terms feminists love.

I'll start:

Manspreading, mansplaining, toxic masculinity, mentrification, bropropriating, male gaze, manterrupting, fragile masculinity, etc.

Your turn.

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You could find a hundred women's studies dissertations on why fireman instead of fireperson is devastating to young girls interested in a career in fireputtingouting.

Have you seen stuff like this or are you just making shit up based on what you think feminism is like?

The fact that they chose to label male gender roles toxic masculinity and female gender roles internalized misogyny

Internalized misogyny isn't exactly a soft, feel-good term, & again you have nothing to say to all the reasons I gave above why toxic femininity isn't used.

mentrification, bropropriating...manterrupting

Literally never heard these in my life.

I'll compile all the terms that feminists have coined/popularized that are negative and male gendered.

Hold on there, I'll tell you this, can you tell me negative female things that feminists don't have a term for?

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

L

Have you seen stuff like this or are you just making shit up based on what you think feminism is like?

Feminists complaining about gendered language having a negative impact on women and girls?

I'll assume you aren't being serious here because this is undeniable.

Internalized misogyny isn't exactly a soft, feel-good term,

It takes the blame off women and makes them victims of a system which (shockingly) is evil and male.

again you have nothing to say to all the reasons I gave above why toxic femininity isn't used.

I'm attempting to explain those reasons to you.

Literally never heard these in my life.

Google them.

Hold on there, I'll tell you this, can you tell me negative female things that feminists don't have a term for?

Bzzt!

Trying to change the subject.

The point is they label gender roles for women in a way to make them victims and gender roles for men to make them toxic.

Shall I assume that you can't think of any feminist term that is negative and female gendered?

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Feminists complaining about gendered language having a negative impact on women and girls?

That's the most mot-&-Bailey ass shit I've ever seen, no I'm talking about feminists doing stuff as ridiculous as saying that fireman instead of fireperson devastates future firefighting careers of women.

It takes the blame off women and makes them victims of a system which (shockingly) is evil and male.

y'Know, I think that's more'r'less fair, btw when I received this I was in the middle of writing up a post on r/Feminism about how feminists should use the term toxic femininity.

I'm attempting to explain those reasons to you.

You appear to've made an error, as you're obviously not trying to explain to me my own reasons, you're attempting to give me your reasons.

Google them.

Of course they exist, there just more fringe than you'd like to think.

Trying to change the subject.

What I'm actually trying to do is point out that there's a reason there's more negative male terms.

Shall I assume that you can't think of any feminist term that is negative and female gendered?

Internalized misogyny is pretty negative.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's the most mot-&-Bailey ass shit I've ever seen, no I'm talking about feminists doing stuff as ridiculous as saying that fireman instead of fireperson devastates future firefighting careers of women.

Sorry to hear your Google subscription has lapsed....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ban-word-fireman-because-discouraging-11347100

You appear to've made an error, as you're obviously not trying to explain to me my own reasons, you're attempting to give me your reasons.

Yes the correct reasons.

Of course they exist, there just more fringe than you'd like to think.

Uh huh. No "true" feminist ever bitched about mansplaining right?

What I'm actually trying to do is point out that there's a reason there's more negative male terms.

Exclusively.

There are only negative male gendered terms. There are no male gendered positive terms or female gendered slurs.

It only goes one way and I've explained the reason.

Internalized misogyny is pretty negative.

Bzzt!

It's not negative towards women. It makes them the victim.

Unlike toxic masculinity which links men and toxicity.

Misogyny is an attack on women. Not women being shitty.

So you're willing to accept that you cannot find an answer then.

Good. Think about that.

Or no, nevermind you can't.

But let's play a game: imagine a guy named Bill. Bill thinks gentiles are oppresed and Jews are involved in a massive conspiracy against them. He has a lot of terms with "Jew" in it, all of them are terrible and won't be repeated here. He doesn't do that with any other group. Whenever he talks about the it's negative. They have no good traits to Bill.

Would you say Bill likes Jews?

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI0 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sorry to hear your Google subscription has lapsed...

Thank you for providing an example.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ban-word-fireman-because-discouraging-11347100

This is a lot more tame than you originally presented it.

Uh huh. No "true" feminist ever bitched about mansplaining right.

I originally respected you more than the others here (probably in large part due to the fact that u/fengpi is a fucking crazy person) but you just lost most if not all of that respect with this very blatant strawman, this sentence is utterly batshit on 2 accounts, first I wasn't talking about "mansplaining" & B:I never said they weren't true feminists.

It's not negative towards women. It makes them the victim. Unlike toxic masculinity which links men and toxicity. Misogyny is an attack on women. Not women being shitty.

Yes there is different connotations, which was part of my argument in my recent post on why feminists should use toxic femininity.

So you're willing to accept that you cannot find an answer then.

When did I accept that I can't find an answer? What did I accept that I can't find an answer to?

Bill thinks gentiles are oppresed

Assuming that Bill is feminism & women are gentiles, this metaphor is very off since the relationship between Jews & larger society & women & larger society is very different, also women are oppressed, at least to a degree.

Jews are involved in a massive conspiracy against them.

No, he really doesn't think that.

He has a lot of terms with "Jew" in it

Most of them describing very real phenomena in Jewish culture.

He doesn't do that with any other group.

Here's where the metaphor breaks down again, that's because feminism is not a group about anything other than gender & the categorization of gender is very very incomparable to the categorization of race.

Whenever he talks about the it's negative.

Whenever he talks about broader Jewish culture is it's negative because, metaphorically speaking, broader Jewish culture is kinda bad, Bill very frequently talks well of individual Jews & sometimes talks well of groups made of Jews but can find no reason to speak well of Jewish culture.

They have no good traits to Bill.

Wrong.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]fengpi1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Can you? I bet you can't. Am I wrong? Go ahead, when would that term be hate speech? You can't come up with anything, can you? If you can't, then I think you shouldn't have objected when I said you think the term cannot be used as hate speech in any context. Unlike "toxic femininity" which could be easily used as hate speech, according to you.

I'm surely correct about this, but you simply don't like hearing it from me. If you can't produce an answer, then how is it a baseless claim when I say you can't produce an answer, you gutless twit?

You cannot come up with a response, other than to say I'm making a baseless claim. It makes me think I'm goddamned correct about you and your busted tinkertoy mind.

That's right, busted mind. You cannot say "men and women perpetuate toxic masculinity" without using "society" as a dodge to avoid incriminating "women". Now you cannot tell me when "toxic masculinity" can be hate speech, even though you say I am mischaracterizing you as being unable to do so. Also, you believe there is no masculinity except the toxic kind (for all that is left over is gender-neutral) and that masculinity is without a purpose anyway, except to oppress women. I think you have a busted, broken, ideologically-stunted mind which is openly on display, and it's highly amusing to me.

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Writing informally=brainwashed retarded brainless hive mind retarded man-hating feminist grasping desperately at any, ANY excuse to laugh off the statement, push it out of his mind, not conceive this forbidden wrongthink.

You're really triggered about the word more'r'less aren't you?

y'See th'thing is that writing informally with a lotta contraction's fine, s'really fine, & doesn't necessarily reflect a desire t'be joking, many people've wanted their writing t'reflect their speech & many people'll continue to want their writing t'reflect their speech as contractions become more common & th'English language enters a new phase & the reason many people'd want their writing to reflect their speech's that it can feel kinda unnatural t'not do that, not everything's a conspiracy'r'evidence'a eeeeeevil supreemacist feminism tryin'a maintain brainwashing, y'know?

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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In those examples it's the reasons & manifestation of those things that matter

No, because a lesbian buys a girl a drink, a gay man can buy a girl a drink. Rituals of courtship extend beyond gender and sexuality and the problems aren't uniquely male.

Scantily clad women also are no different than Aquaman staring shirtless Jason Mamoa. Sex sells. Images and symbols of virility are ingrained in collective unconcious. You can see them in myths across the world since the dawn of man.

The toxic masculinity in that instance just tells women that they can't own their sexuality, that they exists only to to serve the "male gaze" (another bullshit term). Its a term that is used to reinforce the concept of modesty in women and remove agency from their own sexualization through an insidious demonization of men, which is a huge problem with the term. It is designed to protect women from men which is (watch me use it,) benevolent sexism bullshit.

The overall effect, regardless of intent, causes or manifestations, is to get men treat women with kids gloves while reinforcing negative stereotypes about men in their heads that generally drive fear. It is a term that draws a red line through the gender gap and demonizes one side while infantilizing the other. That is NOT how you generate equality.

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Evildl17 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You ever notice how the people complaining about sexualization in media are very often the people organizing "slutwalks"?, it's almost as if there's a more nuanced position than "sex bad", almost.

No, I would say there are different schools of thought in feminism and over time their good ideas congeal with their bad ones.

And its not like there aren't studies showing how that sexualization of women actually benefits women, so the prevalence argument falls apart under that logic. But that's besides the point.

The point is its a term that relies on common male behaviors and makes them out to be negative stereotypes in common practice. It is predicated on a misunderstanding of male behaviour and male communication. This isn't to say there aren't male behaviors that negatively affect men and society, but the term in its usage does not reflect that.

And you can say that is not the intent but i am telling you that is not the experience. We are telling you its a bad term. It negatively affects men and the discourse around gender equality. You came in here asking for our opinions and i am respectfully offering it to you. Take into account our feelings. You can dismiss them as you want, but understand you would them be guilty of everything we are falsely accused of with women.

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Evildl17 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If its misused, then its misused in common usage, in which case that demonstrates a fundamental flaw in the construction of the term. And i know there are feminists who hold more nuanced positions. Those are the ones I find typically take men's issues more seriously. They often aren't the ones that throw this term around because they know the juxtaposition of the word "toxic" and "masculinity" can effectively shame boys and men for attributes they can't control because the term in construction lacks nuance.

We have told you its a bad term. We see it as a tool to demonize men at large. That is the rhetorical function of juxtaposition, to assign context to a word. That is inarguable. There is nothing offensive about the term jew, but if you put dirty next to it it would become an antisemitic slur because of how one modifies the other. You can argue all day its about jewish hygiene but that is not how the jewish man would feel about it.

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think you're overestimating how much it's used in that way, especially since whenever the subject comes up the phrase "toxic masculinity hurts both men & women" or something equivalent at least once.

There is nothing offensive about the term jew, but if you put dirty next to it it would become an antisemitic slur because of how one modifies the other.

There are number ways in which that comparison isn't really accurate: firstly the phrase isn't "toxic men" it's "toxic masculinity", masculinity as in the social construct that tells people how to act based on their sex, so less "dirty Jew" & more "dirty Jewish culture" or "dirty Judaism", phrases which could have antisemetic connotations but could probably be justified in the right context (although admittedly I don't know squat about Jewish culture). Another way in which I find this comparison to be off is that "toxic" is more nuanced than "dirty", both in concept & usage. The last one is kinda pedantic but the dynamic from antisemitic sentiments & Jews is is pretty different from the one between antimale sentiments & men.

[+]AEHIILRS1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (39 children) | Copy Link

It's a primitive iteration of the gender malagency concept of "male hyperagency".

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link

[+]AEHIILRS1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (37 children) | Copy Link

I consider Genocidal Feminism a primitive hate ideology. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

[+]AEHIILRS1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (35 children) | Copy Link

I have no way of verifying your claims about your "content creators", even if they did seem relevant to the conversation.

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

[+]AEHIILRS1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (33 children) | Copy Link

Fair, however what I'm trying to say is that that term is not inherently tied to genocidal feminism, not in concept & not in usage.

The term is straight out of "gender studies", which is a direct product of Genocidal Feminism.

(although the latter is probably because genocidal feminists are not very common)

Genocidal Feminism is the mainstream institutionally-powerful one.

[–]ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 7 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

[+]AEHIILRS1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (31 children) | Copy Link

"You have a right to your own opinion.
You do not have a right to your own facts."
✌

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[–]jphuxley 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I hate the term because it implies that men are responsible for toxic masculinity, which is partly true because we’ve been conditioned to fall into traditional gender roles. The issue is that women also tend to promote toxic masculinity. Plenty of women expect men to be stoic, to be aggressive, to never show weakness, and to be the pursuers romantically/sexually. That last one isn’t exactly toxic in itself, but it can be ‘toxic’ if men make unwanted advances, which isn’t necessarily their fault considering they aren’t mind-readers. I can think of plenty of gender roles for women that are toxic such as expecting the men to pay for dates, using more emotional manipulation rather than physical violence, gossiping, or like I said, simply expecting men to display harmful gender roles. Should we call that ‘toxic femininity’? No. That’s not helpful because a term like that would just influence prejudice against women. The solution is to acknowledge that harmful gender roles are propagated by just about everyone, so we should try to condition ourselves to not behave within those standards. The unfortunate result of normalizing anti-male rhetoric is that, well... it is normal now! The blatantly sexist assumptions we hear about men don’t trigger much of a reaction, but when I listed the aspects of toxic femininity, I’ll admit even I initially thought that sounded sexist! We need to stop pushing normalized resentment against groups we deem to be privileged because the logic to support that behavior could easily be used against other groups of people.

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Dude, I’ve seen your comments before, and you seem like a well educated person. I’d suggest not having a conversation with OP cuz OP is terribly small minded and believes in things like ‘the rape culture’, which don’t exist.

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Rapists are amoungst the most revieled criminals going

When people say rape culture they're talking about sexual assault in general & people who do that are often undersentenced, & to bring it back to the idea of a rape culture the most common defense for those who've committed sexual assault is "I thought she wanted it too".

Most people here don't give a single fuck (outside of certain brands of Christianity and Islam) who you have consensual relationships with.

Even in places where people don't really care if you're gay being gay can still often be considered unmasculine & so people make a point of being straight.

And it's true; just look at all those twenty-something femnists with her male tears coffee mug

That's cringey as fuck but it's not a "real men" statement.

or you know, listen to Karen's talk that's been referenced earlier.

I have no idea who Karen is or where her talk has been referenced.

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Title	Y'all's thoughts on th'term "toxic masculinity"?
Author	ShrekBeeBensonDCLXVI
Upvotes	0
Comments	250
Date	July 17, 2019 12:44 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ce5ofj/yalls_thoughts_on_thterm_toxic_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/yalls-thoughts-on-thterm-toxic-masculinity.873364 https://theredarchive.com/post/873364

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