I hope roe v wade gets overturned

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You're giving an extreme outside the scope of our debate and acting as if it's relevant.

It'd be like if you asked me if I thought it was rape to have sex if you had one beer, and I kept asking you over and over again "YEAH BUT WHAT IF YOU'VE HAD TEN SHOTS OF VODKA HUH?"

It's not the debate we're having, you are bringing up a stupid extreme that is completely irrelevant to real life, and you are only doing that in a poor attempt to elicit an emotional response from me about "muh babies dying."

I've already answered you multiple times: I personally do not even care about actual babies dying. Let alone abortion which is just removing cells.

I did explain it several times. There's a difference between a gamete and a zygote.

That's not an explanation it's just you repeating your opinion over and over.

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Among laypersons and professionals, there is much confusion about the meanings and differences between psychopathy, sociopathy, antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), and the ICD-10 diagnosis, dissocial personality disorder. Hare takes the stance that psychopathy as a syndrome should be considered distinct from the DSM-IV's antisocial personality disorder construct,[4] although the DSM states ASPD has been referred to as or includes the disorder of psychopathy.[35] However, those who created the DSM-IV felt that there was too much room for subjectivity on the part of clinicians when identifying things like remorse and guilt; therefore, the DSM-IV panel decided to stick to observable behavior, namely socially deviant behaviors.

Although the diagnosis of ASPD covers two to three times as many prisoners than the diagnosis of psychopathy, Hare believes the PCL-R is better able to predict future criminality, violence, and recidivism than a diagnosis of ASPD.[38][39] He suggests there are differences between PCL-R-diagnosed psychopaths and non-psychopaths on "processing and use of linguistic and emotional information", while such differences are potentially smaller between those diagnosed with ASPD and without.[39][40] Additionally, Hare argued confusion regarding how to diagnose ASPD, confusion regarding the difference between ASPD and psychopathy, as well as the differing future prognoses regarding recidivism and treatability, may have serious consequences in settings such as court cases where psychopathy is often seen as aggravating the crime.[39][40]

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Well, here's the part where it gets tricky, IMO. A zygote is undoubtedly human -- it isn't going to grow into a fish and a tree. But it's a stage of human life that exists on a continuum, which progresses from egg and sperm to infant and beyond.

To say we'll only protect life after fertilization (eggs and sperm are on their own!) is just as arbitrary, IMO, as saying that we'll only protect children who are outside the womb (born) or at some stage of fetal development (viability, "quickening," etc.) If we're going to establish a cutoff, it seems we'd do well to pick one that is going to be convenient for most people.

If, however, you're going to argue that all life is sacred, then I can't see how you can leave spermatazoa and eggs out in the cold, since they're clearly a stage in the human life cycle. But this creates a practical problem; most women do not want to have as many children as is biologically possible, and I doubt many men are down with that idea, either. Among Christians (the predominant religion in the U.S.) only the Catholic Church, as far as I know, in essence requires it. Most Protestants are OK with birth control, which is essentially a proactive abortion, stopping the development of life before it gets started or gets very far.

I see the choice as binary, though. Each month a mature female's body produces an egg that can develop into a baby if it's fertilized. Her choices result in "baby" or "no baby." How "no baby" is achieved -- whether by abstinence, birth control or abortion -- are all roughly equivalent IMO because the outcome is the same.

[–]zeppelin4451 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's not about convenience, it's about truth. A zygote fits all of the criteria for a human, whereas a gamete does not.

If we follow your logic, then calling amino acids humans is just as valid, since they're a stage in the evolution of life as well.

If, however, you're going to argue that all life is sacred

I never argued that and never will. The concept of "sacred life" makes no sense to me.

then I can't see how you can leave spermatazoa and eggs out in the cold, since they're clearly a stage in the human life cycle

Yes, and? Being part of the human life cycle doesn't make you human.

Her choices result in "baby" or "no baby." How "no baby" is achieved -- whether by abstinence, birth control or abortion -- are all roughly equivalent IMO because the outcome is the same.

Then if I go and stab a woman in the gut and she has a miscarriage, I should only be charged with assault, right?

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Realistically, if it's overturned, most blue states will keep abortion and most red states will ban it. So medical abortion will still be available to women who have the means to travel to a place where it's available. The only ones who will be seriously hampered are poor women. I expect a huge black market will grow to supply them with misoprostol (which IIRC is available without a prescription across the border). There probably will be some women who will die from the consequences of self-induced surgical abortions, just like before Roe v. Wade. Some unwanted children will be born because their mothers couldn't afford an abortion, but realistically, given some states' restrictions, that is probably already happening.

I have never been able to understand why conservatives, especially religious ones, rally around the idea of restricting abortion for poor women. (Because realistically, wealthy women who want abortions have always been able to get them.) It just seems so mean-spirited. SMH.

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But would you have spent so little if your use of the medical system wasn't limited by what you could afford? It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. You may very well have gone to the doctor more in your life if cost was not a concern to you.

It's also pure luck really. You sound like you have a strong immune system and no chronic or clinical diseases, either physical or mental. For people who do, they may very well not be able to afford proper care. But it's a net good for everyone if schizophrenics for example are treated, wouldn't you agree?

In general I am a capitalist and believe in free markets, but when it comes down to something as essential as healthcare I believe there should be provisions to ensure everyone has access to it.

It should also be noted that socialised healthcare does not necessarily mean state run healthcare either. The UK is in the minority on that one. We have state run healthcare but most of Europe does not. They have healthcare run by private companies, however insurance is subsidised if you are on a low income. Not solely by the government but also by your employer. So it's not only covered by the taxpayer.

That in my view is a more balanced way to run things and I think Germany's system in particular is, as you'd expect from the Krauts, known for its efficiency and it runs in the way I described above.

While the NHS is a great help to many people I do think it's not as efficient as it could be. I'd be the first to criticise the insane waiting lists if you need specialist treatment for example.

But at the end of the day I'm still very glad my meds don't cost more than my rent and I don't have to worry about paying to see a doctor if I need medical attention.

[–]Willow-girl1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But would you have spent so little if your use of the medical system wasn't limited by what you could afford? It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. You may very well have gone to the doctor more in your life if cost was not a concern to you.

Mmm, probably not. I don't have a lot of faith in modern medicine. Many drugs have alarming side effects! Clean living, healthy eating and plenty of exercise will do more for you than will doctors, IMO. Of course, there are a few wild cards in the deck, like being born with the BRCA gene, or getting run over by a truck, LOL.

I'm really not that philosophically opposed to socialized medicine; merely pointing out that that system also creates winners and losers. It isn't an unmitigated good. And I think it would probably be a disaster in my country, because our government is so corrupt, and our politicians are largely controlled by powerful special interests. The ACA or "Obamacare" is a good example. It doesn't really help a poor person to give him/her insurance with a $7,000 deductible; he/she won't be able to use it, barring a dire emergency, and will probably not receive any more routine healthcare than he/she did prior to the law. So who does benefit? Hospitals, which are required to give emergency care to the uninsured, and had been providing an ever-increasing amount of uncompensated care. (Insurance companies were also supposed to benefit, because they'd have new customers who wouldn't be insured otherwise, although many blew it by charging too little for policies in the early years, and losing money on the deal.)

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Is it possible for one state to make it illegal to do something that's legal in another state? Genuinely asking.

Yes. Remember, we are the "United States of America." Our Constitution spells out the rights of the federal government, and anything that doesn't fall under the federal umbrella is left to the states and the people.

Probably the best example I can think of (off the top of my head) is the death penalty. Some states have it; others don't (although if you are convicted of a capital crime in a federal court, you may be subject to the death penalty even if the state doesn't allow it. One of my newspapers covered an interesting case like this once -- the murder had taken place on federal land and the federal prosecutor sought the death penalty but was ultimately denied. Guess the jury thought it was a bit harsh for a run-of-the-mill drug murder!)

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Propose an actual plan.

Sure, not a problem. Let's start by establishing that this plan is to be enacted by private individuals (pro-life activists) using their own funds, not by the government. (Surely people who feel so strongly about abortion would be willing to put their money where their mouths are, right?)

First of all, good luck getting women to stop spreading their legs (or men to stop sticking their men-parts in there). Since that idea is probably a non-starter, I won't waste any more time on it. What has been shown to work in reducing unwanted pregnancies is access to LARCs (long-acting reversible contraceptives). When Colorado began offering free LARCs to teenagers and young poor women, the pregnancy rate in the target group dropped by 40 percent and the abortion rate by 42 percent.

Now, think about that. We could most likely cut the abortion rate nearly in half simply by making highly effective contraceptives readily availabe to the people most likely to need them (because they really can't afford to become parents). One would think the pro-life movement, upon hearing this news (it's been out for awhile) would have jumped on the LARC bandwagon and turned its pregnancy crisis centers into IUD-inserting ones. No? No.

TL;DR: An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[–]zeppelin445 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

Well, you're not only moving the goalposts, you've set up three or four new sets of them! :-D

Look, my point is that people who consider themselves "pro-life" would better accomplish their supposed goal (reducing abortions) by doing things that actually ... wait for it ... reduce abortions, such as making contraceptives (particularly LARCs) readily available.

They've been tilting at the windmill of Roe v. Wade for my entire adult life and then some, and you know what? Even if they accomplish their goal in getting it overturned, it's probably going to have a very modest effect on the number of abortions actually performed. Women who are desperate to end their pregnancies will just go to the states where abortion will remain legal. (I expect the pro-choice contingent will mobilize to help the indigent.)

So why do they keep barking up this tree?

P.S. I don't have any objection to cutting the social programs. I believe the government shouldn't disburse any funds except for good or services rendered. I'd have no problem removing paternal responsibility if we get rid of government support first. Otherwise, the state ends up picking up the tab, and that's less fair than making the sperm donor liable -- he at least got a lay out of the deal while the state didn't get so much as a kiss.

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[–]lalabats0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Proposal:

abortion is banned completely.
government pays for free contraceptives (BC pills, IUDs, condoms) for anyone who wants it.
Universal Basic Income for anyone who agrees to sterilization. and no bullshit like putting in an IUD and calling it "sterlization" - vasectomy or tubal ligation at a minimum.
Phase out all the BS pseudo-welfare shit like EBT, housing subsidies, and SSDI/SSI now that a UBI is available.
start making an unpalatable but edible and nutrionally complete soy-based poor people ration freely available to anyone who wants it.
very strong border security, harsh crackdowns on illegal immigration, very limited legal immigration. SCOTUS (correctly) determines that the "birthright citizenship" of the 14th Amendment does not apply to anchor babies of people who are in the country illegally.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMG 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]MercedesBenzoAMG 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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Title	I hope roe v wade gets overturned
Author	FireAlarm911
Upvotes	1
Comments	231
Date	October 7, 2018 10:36 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9m45hh/i_hope_roe_v_wade_gets_overturned/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/i-hope-roe-v-wade-gets-overturned.259723 https://theredarchive.com/post/259723

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