Reasonableness Heuristic: At what point does a spouse's refusal to have sex become grounds for divorce?

ElderSign · 2014-12-04T11:51:04+00:00

After how much time, if ever, is the partner who still wants to have a sex life justified in pursuing the "last ditch" option that is divorce?

Either partner, at any time. I would think less of both of them if they don't...
1) have the honest discussion you describe in your post
2) give it at least a few months' effort post-discussion
3) remain on cordial terms for the sake of the children.

Has anything in the withholding partner's behavior violated their marriage vows?

No.

If not the vows themselves, is there any "unspoken agreement" relevant to this situation?

Depends on the couple.

Which partner, if any, would be to blame for a divorce if it happened?

Neither. People change, and sometimes the people they change into are no longer compatible.

Which partner would be more likely to be seen as "in the wrong" by friends, family and society?

"The other one." (Ie. her friends are more likely to blame him, and vice versa.)

furball01 · 2014-12-04T15:12:11+00:00

Sexual incompatibility is one of the top 3 reasons people break up. That doesn't mean you'll get extra money in the divorce, or custody of the kids, for lack of sex. You file a divorce if you are truly unhappy and see no potential for change. The reason why you are unhappy doesn't really matter.

A marriage means both people have to make an effort to make it work. If one person is making a half-hearted effort, that limits the potential for change, and a divorce is probable. That's why I advise:

Don't get married before age 25. The average human brain matures at age 25, and the personality changes along with it.
Don't marry someone until you see them under a variety of adverse conditions.
Make sure you are compatible in the areas of sex, kids, and money before getting married. This often involves living together. Any religion that promotes ignorance of your partner, and increase chance of divorce, is no religion for me.

I thought I heard of one US state where if you didn't consummate the marriage you can nullify it.

rp132 · 2014-12-04T09:49:32+00:00

If they are unhappy and have exhausted every avenue of resolution, they should pursue divorce if they are unable to put this issue aside. I wouldn't say just go divorce or marry people so rashly, but shit happens, and being able to divorce does allow you a way out if your relationship really is starting to become detrimental.

The relationship that you describe is clearly dysfunctional and I would recommend divorce in that situation, but in a situation that isn't so cut and dry, I would say that the one wanting the divorce should give it some more time, or ask for reasoning, etc.

LeGrandDiableBlanc · 2014-12-04T15:07:56+00:00

After how much time, if ever, is the partner who still wants to have a sex life justified in pursuing the "last ditch" option that is divorce?

Thinking of it in terms of a time frame is wrong, but they are justified in divorce when they have brought the issue to their spouse, and their spouse has failed to at least compromise (say, sex a few times a week as opposed to a few times per month as opposed to twice a day).

Has anything in the withholding partner's behavior violated their marriage vows? If not the vows themselves, is there any "unspoken agreement" relevant to this situation?

When you agree to a monogamous marraige, you are holding the other person to not find sexual intimacy outside of your relationship. With this expectation of monogamy comes a responsibility to satisfy your partners sexual intimacy.

Put another ay, if Apple comes out with a new gadget with a proprietary charger, they are responsible for providing those chargers to customers (even if it is on Apple's own terms to a degree). Certainly if they stopped making the chargers, or made too few of them, people would be justified in switching to a different product.

Which partner, if any, would be to blame for a divorce if it happened?

No one is to blame fully. They are incompatible or both incompetent in some way.

Which partner would be more likely to be seen as "in the wrong" by friends, family and society?

Most people will likely blame whichever partner initiated the divorce. Close friends may side with the person who put more effort into fixing the underlying problems though.

wombatinaburrow · 2014-12-04T10:05:00+00:00

If it's too much to bear, split before you hate each other and make a pact to keep the reason under your hat.

homo_homini_lupus · 2014-12-04T15:02:59+00:00

I don't understand the question, to whom is the aggrieved spouse "justifying" the decision to divorce? If it's themselves, then whenever he can't take it anymore, denial of sex by the women in marriage was grounds for divorce before no-fault came into vogue in many states at least I'm pretty sure (alienation of affections or constructive abandonment). In Orthodox Judaism failure to provide sex is grounds for the women to divorce.

InformalCriticism · 2014-12-04T17:23:02+00:00

Absolutely divorce is the best option. If there has been an earnest effort to resolve difficulty as you say, it becomes the last and only way forward.

Vows, generally speaking are only as good as the people speaking them in marriage. The one uninterested in physical intimacy is the one most likely to have less respect for said vows, and this frees the honest spouse from their own vows, since they are only worth holding from both ends; vows are not.meant to trap and torture one or the other oathtaker, they are intended to provide a firm foundation from which to fordge a healthy marriage.

In my experience the one with fewer principles, maturity, intelligence, or moral fortitude will attempt to shirk more and more duties to the marriage either consciously or not. This is a divorce by every account other than legal, in my view.

buartha · 2014-12-04T17:56:08+00:00

At whatever point it becomes a dealbreaker for the other spouse, and the negotiations on how they can make things better reach deadlock.

I wouldn't put the blame on either party; sometimes, your needs just differ too much to compromise.

In my experience, society/friends/family will generally blame the person who files the divorce if it wasn't a mutual agreement (unless something egregious happened,) so if the low libido partner doesn't agree, the higher libido one may face some social consternation.

[deleted] · Thu Dec 4 18:15:26 2014 UTC

[permanently deleted]

rp132 · 2014-12-04T22:24:29+00:00

After how much time, if ever, is the partner who still wants to have a sex life justified in pursuing the "last ditch" option that is divorce?

Any amount of time. Consent doesn't need to be justified. This includes consent to sex, consent to relationships, consent to buying groceries. No means No is a universal norm. If I say "No, I no longer consent to be married to you" then no means no. If I say "No, I do not consent to have sex with you" then no means no. It's a simple concept.

Has anything in the withholding partner's behavior violated their marriage vows?

I mean, maybe, but people probably violate their marriage vows all the time. They aren't a legal contract. "To have and to hold" so what, if I don't hold her am I breaking my vows? I mean technically, right?

Unless the vows were an explicit legal contract (they never are) then a statement of whether or not they are broken is silly and undefined.

If not the vows themselves, is there any "unspoken agreement" relevant to this situation?

Yes, kind of. There's no agreement per se that needs to be upheld, nobody owes anyone anything, but sexual fulfillment is a reasonable expectation out of a relationship, and not having it would be a reasonable reason to seek another relationship.

Which partner, if any, would be to blame for a divorce if it happened?

Neither, blame is pointless. So what, it's the LL-partner's fault for not fucking enough? Maybe the HL got fat and was unfuckable? Maybe the HL partner is to blame for initiatiing the divorce. Maybe the LL-partner is to blame for not being considerate of needs. Whatever. Who cares? Blame is a pointless thing.

Which partner would be more likely to be seen as "in the wrong" by friends, family and society?

Impossible to predict without a more specific situation. Honestly though, who cares what society thinks? If I'm deciding my relationship isnt' fulfilling, I don't care if my parents think I'm being selfish.

nomdplume · 2014-12-04T19:39:52+00:00

Hey PPDrs! I promise this isn't me posting under a different username, lol… ;)

To the OP:

I would say that either partner can be justified in pursuing the last ditch option when they feel that they are not getting their needs met, when they have exhausted everything they feel they can or are willing to do, and when the situation looks to have an open-ended timeframe - meaning their is no reasonable end in sight.

As a matter of fact, I would assert that the "mainstream" or "BP" advice regarding dead bedrooms puts the "last ditch" option on the table right up front. It is usually advised as the better option to the oft-reviled Red Pill ideas of "dread game" and what not.

My problem with bypassing the (proper) use of Red Pill ideas and heading straight for divorce when the conventional methods haven't worked (or in tandem with conventional methods) is this:

A) It assumes that, as unpleasant as Red Pill may appear to others (especially women), it is worse/more damaging/more devastating than divorce to the spouse in the marriage. I'm not convinced that's true. While a man "manning up" and taking charge of his sex life, with or without the blessing of his spouse, may look unpleasant, destroying a spouse's nuclear family, condemning her/their children to being raised in single-parent (or, eventually, step-parent) homes, taking away her house, her finances, her emotional investments, her dreams of the future, etc., isn't exactly what I would call a "win" for her in the situation, and could be, arguably, a case of the "cure" being worse than the disease.

B) It assumes that the man values his sex life above his nuclear family, his children, his house, his finances, his emotional investment, his dreams of the future, etc. I'm currently in the process of trying to turn around a several-year dead bedroom. I want sex and intimacy in my life, but I'm loathe to give up on years and years of love and family and vehemently opposed to removing one of my very young son's parents from his life (even if only for two weeks out of the month, or something). I do not want to lose the life I have worked (and suffered, and sacrificed) for - I love my home, my community, our friends, etc. Taking the financial hit divorce would cause would be miserable, and I especially do not want resources being taken from my son (I feel that we are already resource strapped enough as it is when it comes to his well-being). I am seriously concerned about not being able to ongoingly provide him with the resources I feel he needs to thrive in life. And I realize that I would probably have neither the energy nor sufficient SMV at this point to build a fully inspiring and satisfying marriage again, so getting divorced would mean, for me, that my future would look dramatically different from what I was hoping it would look like. Finally, I actually love my wife. I know how devastating a divorce would be to her. I really don't want to hurt her. I just want a sex life, and I'm looking for the way to have what I want while limiting any collateral damage as much as possible.

Honestly, I think telling a man "don't start thinking about how to take charge of your life and your situation, just get a divorce" is really just a crappy version of "dread game" being played from the other side. I can't help but think it's just a version of "Well, if you think sex is sooooooo important, why don't you just shoot yourself in the foot and cut off your nose to spite your face, m'kay? No? Well, then it must not be that important. So shut up a about it, already." It's an attempt to call a man's bluff.

That's one of the many reasons I, personally, avoided going the "Have sex with me or it's DIVORCE!" route. I would not win that ultimatum, no matter how it went.

Relevant_Bastiat · 2014-12-04T15:15:11+00:00

does everything reasonably in his or her power to fix the issue. From concerned and honest talks, to arranging babysitters/having date nights and helping with chores, to going to doctors, therapists and marriage counselors together.

This isn't really everything in his power. This is him giving up his power to sexual satisfaction by instead choosing to beg his wife. I would just initiate. If I get turned down repeatedly then she's obviously not interested in sex so I just find someone who is. You need to have the mindframe that your sexual needs will be fulfilled no matter what, but you are nice enough to give the wife control and choice over how those needs are filled.

M_rafay · 2014-12-04T17:40:43+00:00

Any apparent lack of sexual attraction, and I'd next her. Not married but I'd honestly be tempted to do something similar there too. Which is one of the reasons marriage is unappealing to me.

GridReXX · 2014-12-04T18:30:53+00:00

Open relationship with a lot of rules.

If the low libido partner dismisses the notion... then yes divorce.

You can't negotiate libido. Some people LOVE sex. And other people like sex. And others are eh about sex. And others are asexual.

So you guys have differing needs. Sexual incompatibility ends many a relationship, marriage, fling, etc...

lionhart280 · 2014-12-12T09:28:40+00:00

The qeustions I ask:

Why the fuck is a grown adult not interested in sex? Either their libido has crashed so hard they need to see a doctor because they might have a serious condition, or they are satisfying it some other way (ahem, cheating, ahem)

A sane person only cuts off sex for a few reasons:

They have found a better way to satisfy their libido. (uh oh)

They don't have a libido at all anymore (See a sex therapist/doctor)

They are using it as a form of power/control (divorce, asap, thats fucked)

Figure out which it is. If its #1 or #3, divorce instantly. If its #2, sometimes they actually just have a hormonal issue and a couple pills for a week or two fix everything. Seriously, your glands control all of that shit, and you'd be surprised at how many problems also cause drops in libido.

SirNemesis · 2014-12-04T15:04:27+00:00

After how much time, if ever, is the partner who still wants to have a sex life justified in pursuing the "last ditch" option that is divorce?

Yes. Of course, they could just have an affair instead of divorcing.

Has anything in the withholding partner's behavior violated their marriage vows? If not the vows themselves, is there any "unspoken agreement" relevant to this situation?

Yes to the latter, it has violated an unspoken agreement. It would be like just quitting one's job and sitting around on the couch and saying "I didn't make any marital vows to my spouse about doing any work in the relationship!". Sure, maybe there weren't any marital vows, but there was an obvious expectation.

Which partner, if any, would be to blame for a divorce if it happened?

The one that withheld sex, obviously.

Which partner would be more likely to be seen as "in the wrong" by friends, family and society?

The man, obviously.

NotMeUsee · 2014-12-04T17:19:49+00:00

I woudnt divorce. I would just get a girlfriend and let her wallow in her terrible existence where she made hersef obsolete. I would never divorce someone bitter enough to not please me. That says they are cruel and would go after everything you have. Let her realize she messed up. Get laid elsewhere. Deal with the blowback but ulimately you have won and she will have to shape up or watch from the side lines while you fuck her 25 year old peers.

Title	Reasonableness Heuristic: At what point does a spouse's refusal to have sex become grounds for divorce?
Author	ppdthrowawayz
Upvotes	4
Comments	40
Date	December 4, 2014 9:14 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2o8vka/reasonableness_heuristic_at_what_point_does_a/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/reasonableness-heuristic-at-what-point-does-a.284197 https://theredarchive.com/post/284197

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