~ archived since 2018 ~

I’m literally shaking right now

Leo_pard_

August 22, 2019

3195 upvotes

Archived from /r/PussyPassDenied

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Post Information

Title	I’m literally shaking right now
Author	Leo_pard_
Upvotes	3195
Comments	121
Date	August 22, 2019 12:35 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PussyPassDenied
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/ctwtbp/im_literally_shaking_right_now/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PussyPassDenied/im-literally-shaking-right-now.1204656 https://theredarchive.com/post/1204656

Comments

[–]BlueBlood75 282 points283 points284 points 6 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

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[–]draconicanimagus 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Better to be slightly mistrustful of all strange men than treat everyone universally as if they have pure intentions and then end up getting raped or sold because that one guy in a thousand happened to cross her path. Women couldn't have to put themselves into any chance of danger in order to make strange "good" men feel like they're not being "misjudged".

Since this thread has been locked and I can't respond to the commenter below me: You're right, but that doesn't mean that women who don't have backup shouldn't be leery of random men they encounter. That's like saying "most dog attacks are from pit bulls, so it's silly that you're making sure you don't get bitten by every dog that you come across, even if you don't know them".

The majority of women who are grabbed and sold are from random strangers on the street, specifically targeting women who are alone or who have no means to alert for help. That's why women are concerned about trusting strangers. There's no reason why they should, trust is earned, not given without cause.

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[–]DrLlemington 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

People don't know how to read behind a hyperbolic statement. Like are ALL men like what she's describing? Absolutely not, but because of the history of power contexts between men and women, and the statistics of violence against women, both through word of mouth and through study, the statement she's making is entirely reasonable. If someone is getting angry about the way she voices her opinion instead of the actual reason she made it, they don't understand where she's coming from, and thus don't understand the context of historical violence against women. Anyone who looks at this and feels anger towards the messenger needs to have empathy and look deeper at women's experiences in daily life.

It's frustrating to see a comment section like this, but I support your willingness to combat these comments and suffer a bit of karma loss. At the very least we're getting both sides of the story out there.

[–]silentsoylent 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]DudebroVonLolbuttIII 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I guess a lot of people, self-included, are more disturbed by the statistics of violence against women than the semantics of how people speak out against that violence.

A natural response would be to ask for sources. Stats are easy to find. .gov sites are a good place to start with finding relatively neutral information. .edu sites are helpful too. If a person can figure out how to use Reddit, I'm sure they can use Google too, so I won't provide sources on common knowledge unless asked.

Anyway, she used "men" as a general statement. Stats show an absolute shitload of men are committing rape. Much higher than that is the number of men who just don't care. She never said the word "all", incidentally. She also didn't say that a man who is uninterested in the topic of rape is automatically an active rapist. It actually seems silly to point out exact word usage when someone is trying to speak out against rape, which, given the stats, is both a widespread and devastating problem. Semantics is just changing the topic from something that demonstrably needs to be discussed.

And rather than leaping into battle against people like her, it's helpful to consider the reasons why someone might feel that men are, in general, unsupportive. It's entirely possible that many people who speak out are recovering victims of rape, and naturally feel vulnerable and a bit cynical. In that case, lashing out is only going to reinforce their negative feelings, thoughts, and attitudes. If a person is recovering, what they really need is sincere support. That starts with non-judgmental listening, not with systematically picking apart exactly how a perfectly legitimate complaint is said.

If we're so quick to say that we're "fucking insulted" when someone claims that men are in general unsupportive about rape, we aren't exactly demonstrating supportiveness.

[–]silentsoylent 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

She's not speaking out against rape, she's attacking men. Ok, let's not mince words. She said men, not all men. Same as some misogynists will claim "women are moody", "women are weaker than men", etc. The misogynists are rightfully blamed for that. Why does every decent person get that generalizations are bad against women, but when it's against men it needs to be discussed?

Wouldn't it be much better to attack misogynists, rapists and apologists? There are enough groups of scumbags, motivating decent people to distinguish themselves from and to help oppose them, joining the just feminist cause. If the bad group is "men", I have no way to distinguish myself from that group. I'm part of the declared group of enemies already.

Btw: I challenge you to find a single reputable statistic showing that a majority of men supports the idea of rape being ok. I agree there are too many of such men, but to claim "Men do..." it should at least be a majority of men, don't you think?

[–]DudebroVonLolbuttIII 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In a brief search, I found no reliable stats that a majority of men are against or for rape. Any stats would vary based on how the study was conducted and how questions were asked. For example, if you ask a room full of men to raise their hands if they like rape, you probably won't see a lot of hands. If you show men videos of people interacting before a rape, and then ask if she "deserved" it, you're likely to get entirely different results. Alternatively, you could do something like an EEG that analyzes for signs of empathy while a man is shown scenarios of rape. Constructing a study of that nature with valid and reliable results is a challenge, which is why you don't see objective stats that demonstrate one way or the other. It's a lot more practical to collect information like crime statistics, which aren't as susceptible to context or individual interpretation. Multiple sources of crime stats show overwhelming that women are victims of rape disproportionately. By my memory, men make up 5-10 percent of rape cases. Each of those cases is equally horrible, but with a discrepancy that high, it's reasonable to conclude that something is causing that difference. Incidentally, 2-10% of reports against men are false reports. It's a small number and illustrates the high frequency of actual rape. Although false reports are comparatively uncommon, they're also terribly destructive to men and women. For men it ruins innocent lives, for women it casts doubt and prevents justice for actual rape cases. So even though false reports are uncommon, in comparison I'm certainly not trying to minimize the damage that they cause.

Combine that with widely available information on data like pay discrepancies and a long history of sexism (delayed voting rights, etc.) and we have a reasonable evidence question how much men, in general, care about women and their rights. Due to the aforementioned barriers we might not have a convenient, hard number that clearly illustrates one way or the other how much men care about rape, but that's how science works. When the data isn't clear, you look at the other evidence and continue asking questions accordingly.

As for making general statements about men, people will disagree on whether or not that's okay. It's not always fair to hold two groups to the exact same standards in all cases. That's why we have social security benefits, extra money, for people with disabilities to help level the playing field for someone who is starting from a disadvantaged position. In the rare fields that are dominated by women (my field), you see incentives to attract men, in order to promote gender diversity. Refugees have programs to help them escape from their countries, with loosened criteria and additional assistance to settle elsewhere. Hell, we even have golf handicaps as rule adjustments to make things more fair. My belief is that women's complaints about men needn't be met with the exact same hostility as when men belittle women. The statements are made from entirely different experiences, contexts, and emotional states. Obviously, like now, people won't always agree on exactly how or when the rules should be adjusted. There are complex social and historical forces that obfuscate things. There are reasons you and I both have ended up on different sides, based on the experiences, opportunities, and hardships that we've had.

Same applies for the woman who made this statement in the first place. Something caused her to feel cynical about men in general. It may or may not be right, but she didn't single out one person and personally attack them. And it's not like men are the trampled underdogs in society. A bit of criticism won't destroy us the same way a Neo Nazi hate rally would damage the Jewish community.

I agree that generalized statements shouldn't be made. It's better to deal with that by preventing rape and not making women feel vulnerable and cynical in the first place. Or we could support the women who feel vulnerable and cynical, and show them that not all men are the same. We don't have to go nuclear with rage over word choice when there are other ways to handle it.

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