Your yellow fever needs a red pill.

blazingblue16 · 2014-01-13T23:21:45+00:00

Women are women are women. You can put her in a different society, different culture, different family, different hemisphere... a woman will still be a woman. To think otherwise is BP - which is why when people circlejerk about how perfect Japanese women are, I roll my eyes. I've lived in Japan, South Korea, and visited Thailand. The women are just women. There are "RP" women who game hard for marriage to a rich, successful, alpha guy. There's going to be moochers, the gold diggers, just like there are in Western cities, particularly those with great income disparities. There's going to be girls getting fucked sideways and gaining nothing from it - sluts. There's going to be unicorns.

Take an average guy, somewhere between beta and alpha. Western women will typically try to win him over with sex, and then after he gives that commitment, she dries up and puts him in the beta bucks frame. This same guy may think Asian women would have treated him way better, but that is just BP fantasy. The Asian chick would have given him submission, being sweet, cooking, etc etc until he forked over the commitment. Then, he's paying for her whole family to relocate, and she is becoming the fat matriarch of the house, just like her mother was.

Asian women and white women are the same. They have been taught different tactics due to living in different cultures. But their drive (do whatever it takes to lock down commitment) works in similar ways. Women are women. The type of guy who is capable of going Eastward, locking down a beautiful, submissive, sexcat of a Asian wife, and then keeping her in that frame for many years... he is the type of guy who could lock down a high quality Western woman and keep her in that same frame too.

And the type of guy who has gotten used and spit out by western women... chances are the same thing awaits across the water.

W-Z-R · 2014-01-13T13:08:11+00:00

I like East Asian women purely because of how they look but OP has injected some much needed truth. They. Are. Ruthless. As. Fuck. Iranians and Lebanese are probably even worse(/better).

Read this bit everyday:

You're just a shinier beta bux.

[deleted] · 2014-01-13T18:01:23+00:00

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IIHotelYorba · 2014-01-13T22:11:55+00:00

...you do not suddenly go from beta to alpha just because you moved to a foreign country. You're just a shinier beta bux.

Can't agree enough. Don't go to a foreign country as a crutch or a consolation prize. Go to challenge yourself and expand your horizons.

lugzxx · 2014-01-13T19:04:27+00:00

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/plastic-surgery-you-cant-hide-it-forever.jpg

Draki1903 · 2014-01-13T20:38:25+00:00

The make-up comparisons make me believe going to a swimming pool together should be a priority spot for dating purposes.

TRPsubmitter · 2014-01-13T14:36:06+00:00

Nice summary of relevant points in response to the yellow fever circlejerk lately here. /u/redsunblue and I have to go in and remind people of a lot of the stuff you just listed every thread.

Two most relevant points you listed are:

1) White guys liking sub-average to average Asian girls. Just because an Asian chick is not fat, doesn't mean she's hot. It's more of an indictment of how fat the West has become that guys see a homely Asian girl and call her a "7.75" (as one guy here on TRP did last week) just because she weighs under 125 lbs. I guess any girl who weighs under 125 in the States is automatically above average, by definition. In Asia, it's like a HB 3 baseline.

There's a reason why busted up Asian girls go to foreigner bars and pine to their friends that "I was so much hotter back in LA/Vancouver/Melbourne!" They go where they get attention; and that attention is received from white guys and not Asian guys (the latter of whom are quite mean and fat shame Asian girls).

This supports TRP theory:

White guys who profess a "preference" for Asian chicks usually a) can't tell the difference of who is really hot (just like Asian girls think some pimple-faced gamer looks "just like Matt Damon"). Thus, b) they have lower standards when it comes to Asian chicks (no white guy turns down an Asian girl with smoky makeup, booty shorts, and a little tummy. My Asian guy friends run away from that as she is "chubby, looks slutty, and using makeup to hide her ugly face"). The result is c) more attention, more validation, more "shinier beta bucks" for these Asian women who can't get it from Asian guys. Same reason I see 160 lb fat Asian girls with huge asses in black hiphop clubs here; they need lovin' too and will go where the beta bucks is.

2) Asian girls being Redpill women. Going up to an unknown group of Asians or Asian-Americans in an Asian setting as a perceived outsider is asking for a cold shoulder. I see guys come up to girls all the time with the "I just love your culture/language/Ni hao!" shit and get blown up, mainly by Asian-American girls who can be brutal. Further, most Asian girls I know back in the States exclusively hangout at lounges and if you don't got bottle service, GTFO. Golddigging at its worst.

All this being said, this doesn't deny that tons of Asian-American chicks go for white dudes or preclude a high status white guy getting a truly hot Asian chick, but it adds much needed context & nuance to the recent "all Asian girls love white guys/all Asian guys are feminine" circlejerk here.

PeronPez · 2014-01-13T10:05:29+00:00

Don't take offence but from living in China for a while, i felt bad for the male population there. For the most part they seemed very feminine, in their mannerisms and behaviours. I know a lot of European guys are following down this path, but this seemed to be the norm. Secondly the majority of Chinese women would go crazy over foreign guys, often when talking to them, they would insult chinese men and say how they just want laowei.

Personally I don't have yellow fever, but a lot of foreign men who go to China do and love it there. On the most part because the women there come across more feminine compared to western women.

This sort of dynamics is the same for western women and african men though.

we_r_legun1993 · 2014-01-13T23:48:47+00:00

Holy shit. Asian girls and their fake eyes... Almost every single Asian girl that I've ever met put on pale makeup and colored contacts like this. What are they trying to accomplish? Yeah, youre an Asian girl with blue eyes. Sure. I have a theory that Asian girls really hate themselves (or their dads) so much that they have to put in colored contacts and dye their hair to look more white.

FugitiveAlpha · 2014-01-13T15:17:14+00:00

Thing about yellow fever is that its not always this thought process that they will be happy with a beta. Personally, i like the way they look/sound (particularly Japanese), and honestly, if i have to be on-point all the time, and not slip from frame and all the crap that i have to do to maintain her attraction for god knows how long, i want her to be worth it. Now before you go back to "grass is grass" remember, i have a preference for the way they look, so a 7 (in your eyes) Asian is , to me, at least as attractive as an 8 white girl (again number in your eyes). Also, I'd argue that many Asian women hold their youthful looks longer.

I do appreciate your post, however, as it needs to be said. There are, indeed, far too many that think a mail order bride will be the answer. They wont be, and if you end up with an 8 and you cant pull an 8 normally, what do you think will happen when shes here looking at rich guys who can pull 8's and 9's... Not to mention when she makes friends with American women..

[deleted] · 2014-01-13T20:54:56+00:00

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youreunbelieveable · 2014-01-13T18:38:14+00:00

As a 6+ foot above average looking white guy it is my destiny to have a sex tourism trip in Asia. I just want to play the game on easy mode for a while, I think it will be good for my health and outlook on life. Being in America has made me really jaded towards women.

[deleted] · 2014-01-13T16:14:10+00:00

Why is the formatting so terrible? (On alien blue)

puresteel · 2014-01-13T22:47:06+00:00

'(My hypothesis of why you white guys like sub-par looking Asian girls.)'

We have different standards of beauty. I'm Eurasian, and grew up in Asia. White guys place less emphasis on skin tone and faux cutesy behaviour and find teeth and body shape to be more important. White guys don't get as hung up about eye sizes and often prefer taller woman, because they're taller themselves.

People need to get over this yellow fever shit. Some people have a preference, and there's nothing wrong with that. Yes, asian women from developed countries in Asia (and Filipinos!!) aren't submissive, but there's more to Asia than east Asia. I've dated women from Iran, central Asia and Eurasian Indonesian and Japanese girls and had a great time.

I'll be honest though, I'm not interested in dating a softly spoken wall-flower whose going to walk behind me. I enjoy dating woman who are calm, quietly confidant and have solid ties with their families.

rapreaper · 2014-01-13T18:56:56+00:00

One asian man took a paternity test of his son when he discovered his son looked too ugly to be his. Turns out the wife had multiple surgeries to go from something like #2-3 to #7-8.

Tastygroove · 2014-01-13T19:03:39+00:00

Hong kong princess syndrome is just repackaged borderline personality disorder.

MattsEffect · 2014-01-13T15:47:27+00:00

Asian american here. Have inly had the opportunity to date non asian girls. I've gone through periods of beint alpha and beta, flip flopping over the years due to different circumstances and new attitudes, currently in an alpha phase, have a cute caucasian gf of a year now. Can confirm race doesnt matter, and its all on your confidence and self worth. That being said, most asian girls wont give me the time of day. They either think I'm too white washed to fit into their pre-notion of who they thought I was before getting to know me, or they auto decide to turn me down before any exchanges are even met. A lot of asian girls I know are dating completely whipped beta/omega dudes, and are just riding off internal cultural issues. Many asian girls have admitted to being insanely attracted to me but don't know how to interact with me; funny enough always after seeing me around with my gf. I think a lot of asian girls just assume that asian men are always going to seek them out and treat them special. Just show them that they're no different and it rocks their universe sometimes - its insane how awful yet consistent this seems to hold in my world.

*Edit= As an asiam american male and my exp - an asian girl will accept and reject you for more or less the same reason. If she accepts you she expects that you pedastal her because she is asian. If she rejects you it is because you are 'just another asian guy.' Game doesnt apply because this is such a clear cut reverse racism issue, and interacting with a girl like this is just a balancing act between two extremes where you lose no matter what. So I gave up. When I date other girls who aren't asian, they know and appreciate me for me and dont expect anything else.

Dragontitz · 2014-01-13T16:00:34+00:00

i like Asian women because they look young as fuck

[deleted] · 2014-01-14T09:52:31+00:00

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Hexthorne · 2014-01-13T21:47:52+00:00

A lot of asian girls LOVE their DRAMA shows, they crave it. These are Asian versions of disney mashed with twilight. (unrealistic views of love and you can't tell who the lady is)

This isn't just an issue with Asian women (I would say Koreans and their K-Dramas are the worst), it's a problem with Millenials.

They watch all these drama tv shows, Disney movies, RomComs with happy endings, etc. - then they expect their life to go through the same kind of cycle. Drama -> Resolution -> More Drama -> Resolution. If they go too long without some drama they create it (unconsciously) to try and push themselves back into this cycle because they have been brainwashed into believing that's how they get their happy ending.

Men are not the only ones who have been lied to, but we've been lied to differently than women. As always, you have to screen the women in your life for signs of this kind of behavior and next the ones that are going to perpetuate this kind of cycle.

Staple_Stable · 2014-01-14T00:08:43+00:00

Any one with any kind of "fever" needs a red pill. The majority of people on this subreddit are white, so their experience with other cultures is going to be largely biased in the positive direction. Especially their experience with women from other cultures (white males are highly desired in basically every culture).

Asians, middle eastern, latina, all have huge flaws that are often overlooked here. Often, there is a huge over idealization and infatuation with women from a "less western" culture. I speak from experience when I tell you this. I'm mexican and whenever I hear white guys talk about hispanic women, they're either only being exposed to the positives, or are choosing to ignore the negatives. Either way they're in for a bumpy road if they start generalizing like this.

There are certain cultures which you may be more compatible with, but make no mistake, as soon as she gets any sort of exposure to western culture, you better be prepared to draw clear boundaries because women absolutely hate being part of the socially different.

[deleted] · 2014-01-14T06:08:55+00:00

I kinda laugh at the White guys with legit yellow fever. The yellow fever that makes them get with any girl so long as they're Asian. Cock eyed, fat, acne, doesn't matter. So long as she's Asian he's in that like meat in a wonton.

So many people don't know how awful Asian women really are. Asian dudes will gladly tell you if you ask nicely though.

[deleted] · 2014-01-13T15:27:16+00:00

Well said, OP. I'd say this is a pill that needs to swallowed, post-haste, by all these foreign women pedestalizing weeaboos.

I myself have been guilty of this type of fever for lovely ladies of Slavic descent, who are oftentimes just as ruthless, academically skilled, and redpilled like their Asian counterparts.

The fact is that while, yes, there are many nice qualities to foreign women that you cannot easily find here at home, they are still women with the same inherent flaws. My Ukrainian ex was one of the smartest people I've ever met; still hamstered wildly over handbags and stilettos and male attention.

Count on a woman - any woman - to be a woman.

youreunbelieveable · 2014-01-14T09:32:33+00:00

Wow those makeup pics. Bu hao!

SomersetRaglan · 2014-01-13T17:38:53+00:00

I'm not sure what those pics were supposed to show. they were all ugly, makeup or not.

Also I'm not sure where this whole white guys like ugly azn chicks comes from. I think its much harder to be acceptable looking if you're Asian, no matter what your gender.

anon_k · 2014-01-13T16:31:59+00:00

My hypothesis of why you white guys like sub-par looking Asian girls.

Its weird, but white guys always seem to go for the butt-ugliest Asian girls. I think its such a novelty to them that they don't even notice how she really looks. Sure she may be slim and small, but what self-respecting Asian chick isn't? If these potato faced girls were to go back to their home country they would be bottom of the barrel. They know that, and that's why they date exclusively white guys. But it always amuses me to see some 9 white guy, with a 3 or 4 asian chick, and he thinks she is the hottest thing ever.

[deleted] · 2014-01-13T19:27:37+00:00

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PaulRivers10 · 2014-01-13T20:31:32+00:00

By far, the americanized-asian girl that I dated was the best girl I've dated.

Unlike American girls, she was emotional - but like, "normal" emotional. American girls (and american girls are the only other kinds of girls I've dated) often seem to think that being cold, unresponsive, and unemotional is "sexy" and bullshit.

She was emotionally expressive, and it was fantastic.

She was as much of an attention whore as american girls, but unlike american girls never in a way that was a problem for me.

For example, american girls have gotten upset with me that I was talking to enthusiastically to - their boyfriend, their roomate, their female friend, my own friends - etc etc etc. My attitude was usually kinda like "to bad", but they'd get jealous over the stupidest shit.

The asian girl loved getting attention from me, but when I was giving attention to someone else - no problem. She didn't feel threatened, jealous, etc, nuttin'. In fact, she just thought it was a ton of fun. It was great.

She didn't have the american girl hangups about talking about sex, with me at least. She also initiated sex when she wanted it, rather than doing the "figure it out because I'm mad at you" bullshit. Also - actually enjoyed sex and felt good about enjoying it.

Maybe actual asian girls are a pain in the ass, I could completely see it. But the americanized-asian girl I dated was fantastic.

jagrmeister721 · 2014-01-13T23:57:20+00:00

No offense, but this sounds more like sour grapes from a Chinese guy that Asian women are dating white guys, as opposed to red pill truths. I appreciate where you're coming from, but that kind of anger doesn't always produce objective advice.

My observations is that yes all women have Hamsters, but Asian women are a little more in control of theirs. The thing all guys love about Asian women is they act like women. Today, that's radical.

alfabro91 · 2014-01-14T04:44:15+00:00

You're right. Although simply standing out from the crowd can be a really big advantage.

I spent 6 months in Hong Kong when I was 17 or so and got laid quite a lot despite having no game at all at the time. It was entirely due to me being a tall nordic looking guy aka exotic and standing out from everyone else.

Jaereth · 2014-01-13T19:46:10+00:00

For me it's just an experience. Before I had slept with a Mexican girl, or a Japanese girl, I would always put in extra effort and get a little extra excited when I would meet one. It's like going to the ice cream store with all those different drums and seeing a flavor you've never tried before, but looks good. Now that i've had them, they are on the same level as vanilla. No special consideration is given.

I think after the novelty wears off the standards will go right back up.

[deleted] · 2014-01-17T08:00:09+00:00

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FalconLordxxXxx · 2014-07-05T16:32:20+00:00

I know this is plenty old and seems to be dead, but I have a quick question, and I know it'll probably get plenty of backlash, but oh well.

So, after reading everything this reddit had to offer, and reading the opinions voiced, I have come to gather that any Asian woman WORTH dating (I use worth very loosely) based on what many of you have said [which can be based on looks, personality, mentality etc etc] - has lead me to believe that white males don't stand any chance in finding an Asian woman that would fit the criteria that an Asian man would deem acceptable for dating or marriage.

Is that a reasonable assessment?

If so, then why would Asian men even be angered by white men with Asian women? ya know, since the Asian women they are with aren't "Asian women worth having" < not a direct quote, but more of a paraphrasing.

Honestly, not trying to stir up shit, troll, or anger anyone. Just a simple question. I'm more curious about the fact that it seems as if white men don't stand a chance in hell with a "quality" Asian woman.

To clarify, when I say white men, I don't mean your average white guy with "yellow fever" who thinks just any Asian woman is the sexiest thing to have ever walked the earth. I do know there are white men who put Asian women on a pedestal, but that's not the group I'm getting at here.

blazingblue16 · 2014-01-13T17:32:16+00:00

People get to have varied tastes right? I like Asian women based on how they look. "Flat" chests don't particularly bother me compared to the udders, and utter implications therein, you see in the west. Gangly cow things. Vomit

Still, otherwise you're mostly right. Any problem you have in your current environment will follow you wherever you go, since its not them, it's almost always you. It may seem like they're drawing from different stock at genetic and societal levels, but we're all still drinking from the same well.

Take for example Japan- you got plenty of princess / prince syndrome over there. Post WW2 a lot of parents today had to wrangle with food rationing, grinding poverty and the humiliation of loosing to the west, and their takeaway was that their kids would never have to endure that, so you have back-to-back generations of kids spoiled out of their minds, and then trying to do the family thing themselves and realizing they got no clue how it's done, nor that they're adjusted enough to adapt so much as merely endure it. Not saying it's any different here in the west, but rather that it's exactly the same. And furthermore its culturally normal for the wife to manage the house's finances. After working all day it's culturally normal that the guy hands his earnings over to his wife, who then gives him an allowance basically.

That being said? If you're a smooth opperator you got your pick of women, but yet again, its no different than over here. Hell, articles featuring proactive foreigners getting all the dates in Japan while the men in Japan tend to be impotent panzies is a relatively common feature. People need to recognize that there's a difference between being worldly and thinking the grass is greener on the other side. People can thrive in foreign settings, they can find wife material abroad, but before you even get that far if you're not well adjusted to your current conditions? Oh hell no. If you're still the same muck racking, shit eating scum of the earth back home, you're not going to do well anywhere else because that's something that cuts to your core.

TL;DR: you're a car. If you're a Bougatti Vayron everyone wants you. You're sleek, you have some pedigree to you (or at least the appearance that you're not inbred) you obviously have the means to some class, and you're obviously a bread winner.

If you're an old Dodge Neon? Well you're ugly, no one wants you, you're obviously the product of willful neglegence and apathy, and you're probably trying to blame it on anything from unions to bean counters, but god forbid you accept blame on yourself.

You don't necessarily need to know how to be the alpha but you still need to know how to sell yourself. Doesn't matter if you're alpha, beta, omega, delta, whatever- someone out there is going to like you if you can put down your "A" game.

[deleted] · 2014-01-14T10:19:47+00:00

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DogInTheBath · 2014-01-13T16:15:06+00:00

I understand you have been burnt but maybe you need to move if it's that bad. There are some good Asian girls minus the hamstering and some even have tits and ass!

VZPurp · 2014-01-13T21:23:24+00:00

Lol, whenever I travel to Asia for work, I often have to do so with a group. Generally it's split 50/50 male/female.

What ends up happening is none of the women go out with asians. So they fuck the most alpha guy(s) in the group, who then can regularly fuck multiple women from the group as well as many locals.

trplurker · 2014-01-14T03:19:03+00:00

Mostly on point, other then the chip on your shoulder you need to get rid of.

I've said it many times, women are the same everywhere, asian chicks just act more feminine as part of their girl game. They are also more aware of their own hypergamy and emotional nature the western women are, they aren't busy trying to be men.

Women are attracted to displays of masculinity and western white men tend to act more masculine then asian men, though this has more to do with cultural imperatives left over from Confucian times. Kind of how white men look emasculated next to many black guys (poor ghetto culture vs white suberbian culture). Anyhow that's a different discussion entirely.

When talking about asian chicks please divide them into two categories. Westernized and non-westernized. Westernized asian chicks are just as slutty as western white girls, often worse due to the sheer volume of male attention they get. You'll see them around the foreign bars and hook-up joints. They ok for a quick lay but don't ever get into a LTR with one, they are toxic. Non-westernized asian chicks are far more reserved with sex, they still put out enough but are quiet about it. Uni girls can be easy if you know how to work the college party scene, but your gonna need a solid social group of local guys to have your back.

So yeah a BP guy will get into just as much trouble as in the west. The difference is a BP guy actually has a chance at a stable family, divorce is frowned upon big time and they'll likely stay together. She just won't be the same with him as she would with a more alpha male.

shadymilkman_ · 2014-01-13T16:23:58+00:00

Never had yellow fever and I feel like many who do are just sad weeaboos

Aerobus · 2014-01-13T23:12:10+00:00

I'm an Asian man attracted to Asian women. That said, allow me to offer my perspective.

If you're beta, you will be treated like shit.

http://www.strippedpixel.com/hong-kong-princess-syndrome/[1]

Asian girls before and after makeup http://acidcow.com/pics/20695-asian-girls-before-and-after-the-makeup-75-pics.html[2]

South Korea is notorious for plastic surgery http://www.businessinsider.com/korea-is-obsessed-with-plastic-surgery-2013-5?op=1[3]

Completely agree and I know that asian women heavily use make up. I agree you need to be alpha to stand up for yourself.

A lot of asian girls LOVE their DRAMA shows, they crave it.

Can confirm. Mom watches Indian drama, Taiwanese drama, Chinese drama, Japanese drama, Korean drama ...

BUT! I'd rather let a SO watch nonsense drama for hours on the TV to get her fill instead of inducing drama in our relationship.

Landing strip is a Chinese term for a lot of Asian girls, referring to their flat chest. Also they have no ass.

I think this depends on the man's preference. Yes, I'd be lying if I said all boobs are the same. Some are more attractive than others. But if she's feminine, sweet, takes care of her appearance, doesn't gain weight, on top of many other things, I'd be fine dating someone with a flat chest. In my opinion (feel free to disagree) if she crosses a certain physical looks threshold (7/10? this I'd have to figure out really) then a lot of good personality traits could overlook what she lacks physically.

Attitude of post wall girls and reason why they went post wall

Can't watch video, will do later; however, in China/Hong Kong (forget which), there are some women who don't want to become 'leftover women' and do avoid the wall.

Final note, Asian girls are really red pill,

Can confirm.

Asian people are also brutally honest in social gatherings, she will destroy you around her girlfriends if you're weak.

Can also confirm. Personally I like this about them. They don't sugarcoat shit and are brutal.

my Ex 4.0 gpa in a stem field, still hamsters like crazy and also still solipsistic.

Because she's a woman. Sadly they can't be perfect.

All in all, Great post!

[deleted] · 2014-01-14T03:23:00+00:00

love your tldr. that song... as hurtful as it is to watch it, it is true. as a man, i dont wanna depend on a woman. no woman, not even your mother, will ever love you without expecting something in return.

12ToneRow · 2014-01-13T18:12:44+00:00

I'm more partial to caucasoid women, with slavic girls at the very top of the pyramid. I think every white guy goes through a yellow fever phase. I blame porn. And anime. and anime porn.

TheRealFisto · 2014-01-13T12:10:37+00:00

This sounds like sour grapes. This is not red pill related in the least. Sorry bud.

SirNemesis · 2014-01-13T20:18:04+00:00

Well that first link involved a WOMAN saying the spoiled princess was too ugly to act like a bitch, and that the guy should dump her. It seems to me like the red pill is a bit stronger there culturally than it is here...

mbr902000 · 2014-01-13T20:41:24+00:00

I found a lot of those girls in the makeup pictures to be plenty sexy without their face paint. For the ones that I didn't like without their makeup, I didn't find their dolled up faces particularly attractive either. I think if you looked at a version of this experiment with white girls the results would be much more drastic.

[deleted] · 2014-01-13T16:09:52+00:00

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wurding · 2014-01-13T17:21:56+00:00

if you need to look for other races because you can't keep girls of your own race under control, then you are beta.

spaceman2121 · 2014-01-13T16:07:11+00:00

Asia also includes India.

And Indian women are some of the better women around.

[deleted] · 2014-01-14T11:58:14+00:00

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ModsCensorMe · 2014-01-13T22:59:05+00:00

Wow. That was racist and sociopathic . Well done.

Your yellow fever needs a red pill.

Comments

5 and #7 just made me throw up my beer a little bit

Title	Your yellow fever needs a red pill.
Author	The_BitterTruth
Upvotes	120
Comments	150
Date	January 13, 2014 9:37 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1v3jcs/your_yellow_fever_needs_a_red_pill/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/your-yellow-fever-needs-a-red-pill.9950 https://theredarchive.com/post/9950