Dear Men's Rights

Gareth321 · 2010-03-08T02:55:20+00:00

Agreed. Differing opinion must never be downvoted for the sake of it. If anything is downvoted it must be because it isn't well-reasoned.

S7evyn · 2010-03-08T05:10:50+00:00

Pease don't:

Downvote opinions just because you disagree with them. The down arrow is for comments that add nothing to the discussion.

It's the fifth one on the list guys.

2010-03-08T17:43:40+00:00

Downvote opinions if they are there for the sole purpose of riling people up and "sticking it to the man". Opinions that add to the discussion and encourage reasoned debate should never be downvoted.

stemgang · 2010-03-08T05:40:09+00:00

I dared to say that the father has a right to choose what happens to a fetus in a feminists subreddit and was told to get my fucking distorted views back to /r/MensRights or something along those lines.

It goes both ways.

sallis · 2010-03-08T17:31:11+00:00

I joined r/mensrights because I am a feminist and I was really interested in what MRAs had to say. Feminism to me has always been about gender equality and looking at the world in a different way. Growing up in a household of girls it was very interesting. Unlike some people might surmise, men did not get trashed on for doing things because they were men. And when my sisters were being kinda bitchy it wasn't because they were on their period and got an excuse to act like a bitch. (Honestly, the whole idea that women get to be completely inconsiderate because they are menstruating has always frustrated me.) My point is that when I was growing up, behaviors were not presented as being gendered or originating from a gender. I think that was one of the things that got me so interested in feminism, because this was the only body of thought that seemed to advocate the view point that I had reached during childhood.

My broader point is that I think many women who are feminists are interested in gender equality. It sounds like a lot of MRAs on here have had trouble discussing things like gender equality with "feminists." I'm not quite sure why this is. It may be because these women/men you have talked to are more indoctrinated to an anti-gender equality feminism. However, in my experience I was initially put off because so many MRAs seemed to me to be anti-feminism, and for me feminism was the closest thing I had to broaching the topics of gender and advocating for gender equality.

Now, after reading some really thoughtful comments, and looking at anti-feminist arguments, I'm less put off by people discrediting feminism. Some people's experience of feminism is different than mine. If you see feminism as being anti-men or anti-equality, then it is fine to argue against that. However, I think many women who identify as feminists would be valuable allies to the men's rights movement. That said, I think it would be valuable for MRAs to argue against certain points of "feminism", rather than arguing against feminism as a whole. I think this method would help you change the perspectives of people who may not have been exposed to the issues of MR before. I think it would allow you to do this without immediately getting someone's guard up by bashing feminism.

I can understand that a lot of people are frustrated by what they see as feminism and this comment probably won't be popular. I think it is perfectly legitimate to be angered by what people see as the wrongs of feminism. However, not everyone sees feminism the same way, and a lot of the "feminists" that would be interested in MR issues probably see feminism or define it differently than a lot of people here do. So generally, arguments about feminism in this subereddit turn into how one defines feminism rather than arguments about why some points that certain feminist groups pose suck. I think it would be beneficial to use the "feminist" arguments without the label of feminism and attack those initially, rather than attacking what you see as feminism because of those arguments/points put forward by "feminist" groups. I think it is necessary to have discussions about how arguments that certain feminist groups associate themselves with are wrong/poorly reasoned. However too often on r/mensrights, I just see people bashing on feminism and as a person who's feminism is different than the feminism some MRAs usually are bashing on (and usually bashing on for legitimate reasons), it is off putting to see some people attack feminism, because to me it means something different than what MRAs have a problem with.

tr,dl; Bashing on the arguments/tenants of feminism that you have a problem with rather than feminists/feminism as a whole might gain you some valuable allies. It is off-putting to see bashing of feminism, especially because what many people (at least in my experience) see as feminism (usually that it is gender equality) is not usually what MRAs have problems with.

Edit: added some spaces.

Confucius_says · 2010-03-08T02:04:33+00:00

This is why I don't tell people that I support "men's rights", because to too many people think "men's rights" simply means "reverse feminism". Essentially it is the same way "affirmative action" is just "reverse racism".

It'd be great if we could change our attitude about how we we support men's rights, then maybe I'd be more proud of my affiliation.

2010-03-08T06:20:31+00:00

I think what would help a lot is if we all agreed to criticize each other's criticism. When you see someone getting mad about something that doesn't really deserve it, or if you see some dissenting opinions getting downvoted, call them out on it. We need to keep each other in check and not let our emotions get in the way of healthy debate.

Sarstan · 2010-03-08T07:43:11+00:00

While I'm all for having a discussion about it, there's a lot of feminists who refuse to accept any citation, offer their own, and only accept popular belief as fact. After so many posts, I've found feminists still believe men make more money than women, women get raped left and right and there's no one else who does, education for women is brutally at a loss due to so many men in college, and having a penis means you are in fair ground to getting a beating but not at all allowed to hit back.

It's all well and good if there was decent discussion and I'd be very happy with citation being thrown back and forth or some reasonable, non-abusive exchanges. It's just that it doesn't happen very often. I don't like to generalize /r/feminisms, but it's nearly impossible to stay reasonable with some of the more active members.

temp9876 · 2010-03-08T06:07:23+00:00

I'm curious, 'feminism' has a bad rep and perhaps some of that is deserved because there are horrible things that have been done in the name of 'feminism'. I have studied 'feminism' and also been through a custody battle from a man's perspective, so I see both sides of the coin to some degree. Would anyone be interested in hearing what current feminism is about? I feel like a lot of the time the word itself is thrown around inappropriately, the rare hateful people who have used it are being used to label all women. But the intention for most is equality, and there are a lot of allies wearing the label 'feminist' and trying to reclaim the movement, that could be helping to forward the men's rights movement.

If there is any interest, I'm willing to risk the karma to open a conversation about it.

stephoswalk · 2010-03-08T19:09:24+00:00

I've been subscribed to MensRights for awhile now because I agree with many of the issues raised here. I'm also a woman who identifies herself as a feminist because I support many of their issues as well. If a movement existed that was not gender biased and in line with my personal values, I would join in a heartbeat.

I am against genital mutilation of anyone under the age of 18 except in cases of medical necessity. I believe in bodily autonomy including abortion rights and drug legalization. I support victims of sexual assault including men, women and children regardless of the gender of the perpetrator. I hate the way prison rape is regarded as bonus punishment and the butt of jokes because no one deserves to be raped. I think that sex offender registries are horribly misused and child pornography laws are in serious need of reform. I support women being eligible for the draft and, if they are in the military, they should be under the same requirements including shaving their hair off. I think women should be given an equal opportunity to compete athletically with men but they shouldn't be surprised if some sports are easier for men to dominate. I am against the manipulation of the courts in child custody cases because the child will inevitably suffer the most. I believe that single fathers can be great parents and sometimes what appears to be the perfect mother turns out to be the worst possible parent. I hate that men don't have more choices when it comes to birth control however once a child is born the father should have a minimum obligation to the child not the mother.

etherspirit · 2010-03-08T09:03:44+00:00

I disagree. Opinions that are nonsensical which does not add to discussion should be downvoted. This includes flagrant misandry, which many still don't recognize, because they have been raised with feminized values. There is no room for respectful discourse with people who are themselves disrespectful. Most feminists that come here in the spirit of true equality have been heralded.

cryptogirl · 2010-03-09T03:44:00+00:00

The negative treatment of feminists on /r/mensrights is a classic example of "group serving bias,", which includes ingroup bias, group attribution error, and outgroup homogeneity bias.

Of course, /r/mensrights isn't alone in this sort of wrong thinking, but as a member of this community, I think we can do better.

ristin · 2010-03-08T03:58:01+00:00

I am observing that sometimes Feminists who come here are being downvoted. This is a bad idea. It discourages respectful discourse, and will drive those people away when we might be able to use logic to change their minds about gender and rights.

You have that backwards. Feminists interested in repectful discourse are not downvoted. Feminists here to spew sexism and revel in their hatred of men get downvoted. Just like anyone here for reasonable discussion will be treated reasonably and anyone here to be unreasonable and treat others poorly will be downvoted as a result.

It is about their conduct, nothing more and nothing less.

Il128 · 2010-03-09T17:33:10+00:00

Wow! The real problem on here is with feminists downvoting posts and comments from genuine men's rights activists.

You can post a valid link of relevance and sometimes huge importance to the men's rights community and the 'sympathetic feminists' will downvote it into the vacuum if it contains the slightest criticism of feminism.

People like crytogirl (she just downvoted my link regarding 5 year old boys being taught in school that they are evil sexist pigs) just have to type 'equality' and she/he gets 100 up votes in less than a minute.

This post is absurd.

Inconnu2u · 2010-03-08T01:26:23+00:00

we might be able to use logic to change their minds about gender and rights.

Use logic with feminists? You're kidding, right?

ProbablyNotToday · 2010-03-08T02:18:00+00:00

Modern feminists are not rational people. The equivalent of talking to a self-righteous theist in /r/atheism.

stemgang · 2010-03-08T03:41:44+00:00

That's ridiculous, we should downvote all feminists, and anybody else who disagrees with us; make sure they know that they're not welcome here.

avoiceformen · 2010-03-17T03:17:29+00:00

I agree that differing opinions should not be down voted just because they are different. But there is also the problem that feminist ideology carries with it, in most cases, a substantial amount of misandry and false information.

That will get a thumbs down from me no matter how polite or civilized the dissent.

It stands to reason that you can't reason with a lack of reason.

2010-03-08T19:39:43+00:00

It's funny that the feminists have turned up and decided to downvote all posts that disagree with OP, because clearly we ought to adhere to reddiquette more, right?

2010-03-08T03:41:51+00:00

Oh look, it's this thread again.

Title	Dear Men's Rights
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	67
Comments	238
Date	March 8, 2010 1:13 AM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/bagi6/dear_mens_rights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/dear-mens-rights.1050458 https://theredarchive.com/post/1050458

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