Discussion: Is true friendship between men and women "impossible"?

jerryandjerrysizzler · 2015-04-06T00:10:34+00:00

If there's unrequited sexual attraction, then it's not possible. But despite the stereotype men aren't attracted to everything with tits. I think cross-sex friendship is totally possible as long as there's no sexual tension.

GridReXX · 2015-04-06T08:36:20+00:00

So if someone is bisexual can they just not have any friends whatsoever because of the higher possibility of unrequited attraction?

[deleted] · 2015-04-06T01:19:35+00:00

My best friend is a woman. Am I physically attracted to her? Yes, a little. Do I remain friends with her because of that? No, because I would not ever consider having a relationship with her like that for various reasons. I remain friends with her because I can trust her and when we hang out we always have a good time.

People always cite that one study suggesting that men are only friends with women because of the feeling of attraction, but that study only really says that men are more likely to have a physical attraction to their friends who are women. The thing is, there's much more to every individual social relationship than just that.

buartha · 2015-04-06T06:52:47+00:00

I always find this claim so weird. I'm gay and most of my friends are straight men, and the fact I'm attracted to their gender has never affected my ability to bond with them, so I don't get why some straight men are apparently so unable to regulate their emotions around women.

Also, from observation, most of my straight male friends have female friends and I've never seen any spark between most of them. They may or may not be attracted to them, but not enough for it to affect their friendships, and there's no pining going on.

Maybe it could be that men who have high libidos and are virgins or have no current outlet for their sexual desire couldn't be around women as friends without their feelings getting in the way. I'm not saying that's the deal in every case, but it makes sense that guys who lack for female company might project all their desires onto any girl who gets close to him.

[deleted] · 2015-04-05T23:43:00+00:00

One of my best friends who I've known since I was a teenager is a lesbian, we're still good friends. Another of my good friends who I met only a few years ago is in an LTR with another friend of mine, I admit I am sexually attracted to her but I also know it will never happen and I don't expect it to, and no I'm not being a nice guy hoping she'll fuck me lol.

Generally speaking though most of my close friends are other guys. So I don't think it's impossible to have a platonic friendship with a woman as a man, but it's less common generally.

emptypillbox · 2015-04-06T01:16:02+00:00

I don't understand the RP idea that there are very specific laws that mean we can easily predict the outcome of interpersonal relationships. There may be trends, commonalities, correlations, but saying something like, "x is impossible in y situation" is really difficult. It is even more difficult given the variety of demographics involved.

Are male-female friendships impossible? I would say "no". I've definitely seen them, and I have female friends who are my best friends. It is definitely not a universal rule.

Are they impossible where there is sexual attraction? This might be a trend, perhaps, but it is definitely not a law of nature. I'm not even sure it is incredibly common.

Are they impossible where there is sexual attraction within certain demographics, considering age or social connection? We might be able to narrow down even more of a trend here, though I haven't seen the evidence.

The point is, there is an enormous number of trends, but an enormous amount of diversity, so it's difficult to say that there are social laws in the same way that there are physical laws, and while it might be easier to predict what percentage of people will follow a trend out a large population, it is incredibly difficult to suggest how two individuals will behave without knowing either of them.

cxj · 2015-04-06T03:59:47+00:00

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a man and women to have platonic friendship." - Jesus Christ

I don't think its impossible for men and women to be friends, I just don't think its all that common. That doesn't make one gender or the other bad. I usually consider girls that I outwardly call friends to be more of social "allies" than true friends. A large part of this is that women just don't come through for shit very often. When I'm stuck at airports or my car breaks down, my own sister and mother will make endless excuses not to deal with it, while some random bro from instagram I only met once IRL will drive 2 hours at the drop of a hat to help me in exchange for a free in n out meal. Then again, that same bro will also fuck my girlfriend behind my back if given the chance, but whatever, boys will be boys.

If I want to go out and do shit or meet girls, girls are great to hang out with, but if I want to really relax and just chill, the bros are always better.

To try and pacify TBP, I'll also concede that I cannot think of a time I have hung out or gone out with a truly unattractive girl. I think most guys are like this, if they really truly would not fuck a girl they will not make any kind of plans with her at all, ever. It probably sucks ass to be an ugly girl, at least ugly guys have male camaraderie, ugly girls just have the raptor pen.

RRBeachFG2 · 2015-04-06T05:50:13+00:00

As a female you will have plenty of male-beta orbiters that will love to be your friend.

CursedLemon · 2015-04-06T13:18:58+00:00

The problem here is being misconstrued. It's not that men can't have friendships with women, it's that people tend not to forge good and meaningful friendships all that often. Even among most of their buddies, whom they can at least claim mutual interests/hobbies, I'm willing to bet that the "I'd take a bullet for you" line among guy friends is mostly formalities. It's not that men can't have non-sexual relationships with women, it's that people in general keep others at an arm's distance and the general fraternization of straight people is to bang bodies.

Here's a better question - is it possible for a man to have a legitimate emotional connection with a woman, and not necessarily want to date her?

cravenravens · 2015-04-06T02:39:51+00:00

What are your views? Why wouldn't you consider having a friend of the opposite sex?

I don't think it is possible to have female friends as a man. Either I'll be attracted to her and she won't be attracted to me, or she'll be attracted to me and I won't be to her. Either way it's going to suck for one person. Maybe it'd be possible to fuck a really slutty girl and still be friends with her afterwards but usually girls eventually want a relationship and they move on.

goatismycopilot · 2015-04-06T00:45:41+00:00

I think is possible. One of my university buddies now lives around the corner from my mom and when I visit her I see him and his wife. He also drops in on her from time to time. I have two friends in the city that I live in now that are dudes one of them is a movie/coffee buddy, the other one likes hiking. The hiking buddy is younget than me the movie buddy is older. Most of my friends are women however.

worktimeterpin · 2015-04-06T09:12:13+00:00

"Can men and women be just friends? In many cases, the answer is no."

feminazis_stalk_me · 2015-04-06T14:18:05+00:00

Personally, I prefer male friends. I have a few good female friends, but they have to meet the same criteria as my male friends:

Does she demand more than she gives? If she asks me to help her move, but is "busy" whenever I need help with something, then no. I will not make myself available to her or form a friendship so I can do things for her all the time. The problem is, a lot of women I know outsource their shit to men and don't give back as much as they take, and so then it becomes a case of "she's calling me - she must need something".
Is she fun to hang around with, or is she just there? Personality wise, I'm much more on the level of my guy friends. We can talk about a wide variety of topics and get into some deep thoughts while drinking, or we can go out camping or we can chill out and play cards all night. If a woman can actually add good vibes to the enjoyable atmosphere without being a pain in the ass (complaining, making it all about her, needing to be babysat) then cool. If she starts drama or becomes a pain in the ass, then bye bye.
Can we be ourselves or does her being there mean we have to censor ourselves? Men and women interact differently with each other. Men use shit-talk as a form of camaraderie and take it to an art form, and among my friends we speak freely about whatever is on our minds. If we want to talk about cars, we talk about cars. If we want to talk about the filthy sex we had last weekend, we don't spare any details. If she wants to be a part of the group, she has to have thick enough skin and a good enough sense of humor to not be offended. We won't tone down our group to suit her delicate sensibilities - she can accept it or leave.

I personally find that a lot of women (especially younger women) are just plain BORING to be around. They can't make decent conversation, they aren't knowledgeable in as many subjects as my male friends, they're too uptight and they require too much maintenance to bother with.

nomdplume · 2015-04-06T19:04:24+00:00

Meh, this is one of those places where I'll show my "lone wolf" colors.

I have some very close and meaningful relationships with women (my current best friend is a woman, and she and I have also enjoyed some really fucking good sex at various times in our past, to boot). Even women that I find sexually attractive. Even women who, under the right circumstances, I would fuck in a heartbeat (and who may - or do - feel the same about me).

And I differentiate my women friendships from those that would have me play the role of "beta orbiter" (and I know the difference - I have experience being a beta orbiter, and it isn't pleasant for anyone involved).

Two things have made these friendships possible.

One, I've been in a LTR/marriage for a very long time. Despite the fact that my marriage has been sexually non-exclusive at various points, having sex with someone not-my-wife opens up messy complications that I might not want to deal with, so I enjoy the friendship for what it is.

Secondly, there have been times that I'm clear that my friend is looking for a relationship that I am unable or unwilling to provide. Sure, I could have sex with her, but given that I don't believe that they are as able to have it be "just sex" as I am, I'm not willing to risk hurting them and losing a friendship by turning them into a "plate", especially when there are other women who are more than happy to have that sort of NSA sex with me.

Additionally, I enjoy the energy generated by sexual attraction. All friendships rely on various forms of attraction between the two friends, and, for me, sexual attraction is one of those legitimate forms. If the friendship is only about sexual attraction, and no sex happens, then it's not a healthy friendship. But the existence of sexual attraction, along with a myriad other forms of attraction, can make a friendship interesting.

RedPill115 · 2015-04-07T19:15:25+00:00

I've had a LOT of female friends over the years, and there are several reasons to not have female friends as a guy.

1. You'll invest a lot in getting to know her, being friends, etc, then they'll get a boyfriend. Things will still seem fine. Then things will get "serious" with their boyfriend, and they will drop you like a rock.

I've seen the "just stops responding to your calls or messages", I've seen "slowly stops responding to calls or messages", I've seen "creates drama she would not have before so she can get mad at you and drop you over things she wouldn't have cared the least bit about before". Or the slow escalation of "I'm not sure my boyfriend would be comfortable with that" to cover everything you'd ever do together. Want to see a concert with 3 mutual friends? Her boyfriend might not like that. Or I've even seen the "she makes an effort and shows up but is very boring the whole time and no one is having fun" thing happen.

Anyways, female friendships always come with an expiration date of when she gets a "serious" boyfriend. I'm told by female friends that girls often treat their female friends like this as well. (Yeah, yeah, somewhere there's someone who's had a female friendship last, but I haven't, well we're still friends on facebook often but that's about it).

With guy friends, 10% disappear, 45% hang out less, and 45% hang out more. I've seen several guy friends want to hang out more after they get a girlfriend than before.

2. She'll want to categorize you into either fuckable or unfuckable. If you're fuckable - you usually end up fucking. If you're unfuckable, this ends up being a big problem for you. Just having her around will give off a vibe to other girls that you are unfuckable. You'll get used to being treated like you're non-sexual and that vibe will follow you in your interactions when she's not even around.

3. She'll play attention games with you. You'll be out with people, and giving a girl you like all your attention, and your female friend who doesn't want to sleep with you at all, will get jealous and come over and try to interupt you and get your attention. Then the girl you were interested in will feel slighted and like there's something going on with you and your female friend and lose interest in you.

Guys don't do this. Sometimes guys are annoying in their own way, competing with you for the girl, it's not perfect there either, but you're a lot more likely to be on the same page with "dude, this is the girl I invited" and him giving you space.

4. Other girls will assume there's something going on with you and this girl and keep their distance and turn down invitations assuming that your "friend" is involved with you and she'll be pissed at them.

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The best way to have female friends is at a "friendly acquaintance" level. You don't feel nearly as dropped when their "serious boyfriend" expiration date hits, she's not as concerned about categorizing you as sexual or non-sexual because you're not close to her, she doesn't play as many attention games (though it can still be a problem but usually you just have to drop those people), and rather than her keeping girls away from you she makes you look good (oh look it's that guy with a bunch of girls in a group, he must be alright if those others girls know him and are ok with him).

sumant28 · 2015-04-06T02:30:59+00:00

I'm not too sure about this myself and I'm not sure I agree with TRP even though I mostly lean that way.

A heterosexual female is capable of being sexually very attracted to her homosexual male friend but those friendships end up faring better than a heterosexual male attracted to a heterosexual female friend who wants nothing of it.

cisrabbit · 2015-04-06T03:05:17+00:00

I have a lot of female friends. Some of them are even ex girlfriends from a long time ago. We have no lingering desires but know each other pretty well, so we can advise each other on certain things.

DougFane · 2015-04-06T00:28:59+00:00

Absolutely. I's say half my closest friends are female (including my roommate) and there's no difference at all between them and my male friends. Hell, I even met most of them by trying to sleep with them at some point, but after that didn't work out we became friends instead and there's been no sexual tension ever since. It probably helps that I don't like to shit where I eat, so I never hook up with anyone that's part of my social circle. It makes it easy to keep platonic and romantic relationships separate.

RichardPalma · 2015-04-06T01:07:29+00:00

I think this debate has a large chance of falling into a "True Scotsman" fallacy due to the inaccuracy of what a "true friendship" is. I think you can have a true friendship with one or the other having an (unrequited) attraction for the opposite. Just because you are hot for someone doesn't mean they aren't a good person to have as a friend. To that point, I think you can have a "true friend" that you also happen to have sex with on occasion.

I have many friends of the opposite sex and many of the same sex. I don't really understand why this is considered to be a big deal, but instead of me, let's look at pop culture. The Popular TV show "Friends" featured 3 male and 3 female leads who had complicated friendship roles between them (one male-female pair being brother and sister). In that show they were friends and in some cases romantic feelings developed between characters, but on most cases there were no such feelings.

The popularity of the show is important. Popular culture will reject art that aren't a believable reflection of that culture. So a recording of white noise will never make it to radio, but a song about a young guy getting cheated on will resonate well. The point being that if America thought that Joey being friends with Pheobe was unbelievable, it would have never become a cultural icon.

So now, let's go back to my experience. I have friends and I don't really often consider their gender. I have some friends (usually guy friends) where I do because their gender is important to the kind of support they can give me (guys know about guy things better). When it comes to my cross-genderfriendships, it's pretty much as you would suspect, I do shit for them, they do shit for me, we hang out and drink and watch things like Game of Thrones together. I have a baby so women friends are often great for taking care of her if I go clubbing or whatever. Today I went to a big Easter Egg hunt thing and I barely had to care after her as she bounced around from person to person. For once in a long time I got to eat without a little monkey trying to pull food off my plate. (To be clear, it wasn't just women doing this, one of my guys friends had her for a half hour, but mostly it was women doing it).

Anyway... This kind of thing really isn't all that rare. Seems more weird what you are saying "the only man I would consider my friend..." and might be more a part of your personality (do you test as an I type on Meyers-Briggs?) than a reflection of society.

Title	Discussion: Is true friendship between men and women "impossible"?
Author	HappilySingleWoman
Upvotes	2
Comments	46
Date	April 5, 2015 11:35 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/31kimx/discussion_is_true_friendship_between_men_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/discussion-is-true-friendship-between-men-and.282839 https://theredarchive.com/post/282839

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