Alternative to Captain/FirstMate- Father knows bestA

UEMcGill · 2015-01-25T21:27:21+00:00

I'm a firm believer in the Captain/FO model.

One argument against it I think misses the point is that "you seek her input to make her happy". I think this totally mis-represents the analogy. No the Captain is 100% responsible for the mission. It's his prerogative to set the direction of the ship. The first officer role is that as a Real Good Woman, it's her duty to support the mission. It's your job as captain to let her know what the rules of engagement are and how to move forward.

To further the analogy, I leave the bridge to her as she's my number 1. If I'm away or out of town, I fully expect her to hold to the mission (not break the budget, kids to school, house is clean).

Sometimes, in the heat of battle, I am confronted with conflicting data. I say "hey I want to take the kids out to dinner tonight" but she says "I have a coupon for xyz that's good for tomorrow night". Well that's a good FO, because she understands the mission.

Conversely if I treat her like she's the oldest teenager in the house, I get the feeling I'm leading from a failure standpoint, instead if leading to win.

OccamsUsername · 2015-01-25T21:08:56+00:00

If you want to get a bit more abstract, both your "daddy" model and C/FO rely on male leadership, a male head of household to be "the boss".

The rest where you talk about obligations a captain has in serving his FO "because love" reads like nonsense to me. I am under no obligations at any point, but I find that acting honorably builds the healthiest type of monogamous relationship.

RBuddDwyer · 2015-01-25T20:23:37+00:00

I have never once thought about this or any type of dynamic for my relationship. To me, it seems really obtuse, but I can understand the appeal of creating an analogue for this dynamic.

I live my life according to the way I want -- I am very, very selfish in that sense. I will always to give value to people who deserve it. I expect my wife to work hard to make my life better. If she's doing that, then what I want is to make her life as good as I can, because that makes me happiest. That also makes her happy, but the important thing is that it makes me happy.

I've stated explicitly that if she ever decides to stop putting in the effort to make me happy, she can expect that I will do the same. I won't put in effort for someone who does not appreciate it. My wife is pregnant. When our child comes, I know the dynamic will change -- but I will expect that she puts in the effort to make our family happy. I expect that if the family is happy, I will be happy too. If not, I'll say something and act accordingly.

So, to bring it back on topic, I don't think about dynamic. I focus on making myself happy. Often, this means doing things that make my wife happy. My happiness has never and will never come at her expense - that's not giving value. I don't treat her as a child or teenager or first officer, whatever. I expect her to put in the effort to make me happy, and am ready to act accordingly if she fails to do so.

jacktenofhearts · 2015-01-25T20:59:20+00:00

I've referenced Captain/FO is almost every one of my comments. Personally, I think it's a great analogy. Here's why:

Women don’t want to be TOLD that they’re “being included”

The Captain/FO relationship should always be implicit. You should be and act like the unquestioned leader of your household. This is identical to pretty much every other Red Pill technique I've seen. You don't announce you're increasing your value, you just do it. You don't announce you're considering Dread Game, you just do it. Sometimes I read critiques about the Captain/FO dynamic where the husband is literally telling his wife, "you're my FO." This is ridiculous to me. Does anyone actually think this is how you establish a Captain/FO dynamic?

The Captain First Mate dynamic allows for "mutual frame". This is not a place for a LEADER as you have written about.

I'm offered a job transfer across the country that pays 20% more salary. I'm tempted to take it. When I talk to my wife, she raises some valid issues. Despite the pay increase, the transfer is still technically a lateral move in my company, the cost of living will be higher, the school districts aren't as good, etc. If I say, "good points, I will decline the transfer offer," did I succumb to "mutual frame"?

Assigning your SO the role of First Mate implies that YOU are assuring her that her voice will be heard, her input will be considered, because you love her so much.

I don't consider my wife my FO because I feel the need to assure her of anything. I consider my wife my FO because she is a good FO.

Let's say I disregard her advice and insist on moving my family. We pay too much in rent, offsetting any increased pay. Our kids become friends with some delinquents at their new school and their grades tank. The housing market crashes in our old city, so we can't even sell our old house because we're technically underwater on the mortgage.

My wife would not shriek like a harpy about how she was right and I ruined everything and seek to emasculate me. That means she's a shitty FO and I wouldn't tolerate that. Instead, what I think would happen is I would focus on my job and getting a new one at an even higher salary than the 20% increase that I just received. She would do things like fly back to our old home and find renters until the housing market rebounds. Together, we'd figure out what other school options there are for our kids.

This is joke to women who already know they have the blameless option of abandoning or jumping the ship.

If my wife immediately divorced me in the above scenario, this would hardly be "blameless." The American court system does not care about blame, so yes, I'd be fucked for alimony and child support. But this is true under any circumstance once the marriage license is signed.

If I made a series of these decisions -- where I consulted my wife, and then overruled her despite some decent logical arguments, and led my family into an objectively worse situation -- then yes, on a long enough timeline, she would probably say "she's not happy" and divorce my ass and live pretty well on alimony and child support from me. You could see this as the FO "jumping ship" and the Captain "going down with the ship." I prefer to see it as, a Captain can only be shitty for so long before his crew abandons him.

Women will respond much better to a firm, sometimes nice, sometimes asshole father figure than a self promoted captain looking for her input when she shares ZERO consequences for failure

And if you made a series of bad decisions as "father figure," how would your outcome be different than mine?

I'm really trying to see why you think this analogy is materially different. The only thing I can think of is that you think a Captain must always consult is FO. This is categorically false. For moving my entire family across the country, I would consult my wife. But I make many decisions without consulting her at all, because I feel confident it's a good decision and I know my wife would defer to my judgement. The Captain can consult his FO any time he wants. If he has a good FO, he will want to do this more often than if he has a bad FO. But he is never required to, and if he's a good Captain this won't be questioned.

RBuddDwyer · 2015-01-25T19:27:33+00:00

/u/BluePillProfessor and I have been debating this already for the better part of a month now. I first dissented on the C/FO metaphor in this thread.

Definitely check out this article from No Ma'am: Woman: the most responsible teenager in the house

BluepillProfessor · 2015-01-25T20:39:55+00:00

the Captain/First Mate arrangement ISNT a CORE template for RP relationships

This is absolutely true. Rollo Tomossi rejects the Captain/FO dynamic so it could not possibly be a "core tenant" of Red Pill Marriage or /r/marriedredpill. If you have a better way we are all ears. Some of this is written in stone but the Captain/FO is not one of those.

However, MOST guys today find the Captain/FO dynamic is a huge improvement over our pre-Red Pill relationship. It is also more palatable and better to introduce to "strong" women filled with feminism. Even most of them prefer to be the First Officer.

The claim in your post that women don't want input is wrong- women absolutely want input into the decisions. They just don't want to make that decision (so they can't be blamed). Most women prefer a Captain/FO arrangement and sorry to break it to you- women are a part of marriage.

Let me be even bolder- Rollo is wrong. There are TWO frames in marriage. Hopefully yours is the dominate one but completely subsuming her frame into yours just seems creepy.

Most of us started way in the hole and suddenly becoming Father Knows Best will be seen as disrespecting your long suffering harpy, sex denying wife. So if you want to offer this model you need to tell us how to get from Beta Putz or "Drunk Captain" to a single all controlling Frame.

Also, even Father Knows Best consults the children about their preferences, needs, and desires and takes them into account. He even talks to them about what they are going to do! He is a father not a dictator.

[deleted] · 2015-01-25T21:01:19+00:00

I'll just copy my reply to you here as well.

Let me start by saying that first...your LTR or girlfriend, doesn’t want to be your “First Mate”.

/u/OccamsUsername is my SO (Captain) and I am the girlfriend. I do want to be the First Mate.

It may be helpful for other men to see that the Captain/First Mate arrangement ISNT a CORE template for RP relationships despite the fact that YOU think it is so.

Yeah, try telling the RPW sub that the Captain/First Mate arrangement isn't useful, applicable, and a core idea of RP relationships. Women can be First Mates, even if the Captain isn't trying to be one, just as a man can be a Captain/leader even if his SO/W has no idea. We are talking about new terms for very old and traditional ideas - with the man being the head of the household, and the woman being the support.

A strong male role (or CAPTAIN) is essential for the relationship to work.

I agree.

Assigning your SO the role of First Mate implies that YOU are assuring her that her voice will be heard, her input will be considered, because you love her so much.

Only when I have something insightful/relevant to say, only when my suggestions are constructive/useful, and his loving me doesn't mean I get to make outlandish suggestions that are nonsensical or destructive to our relationship. A First Mate has to be useful, proactive, logical, and respectful. If she cannot conduct herself in an appropriate manner, then she isn't a First Mate.

You think you will be appreciated for "listening to her thoughts" and "including her"... You will not. This is left over Bluepill fantasy.

My SO does appreciate when I help come up with solutions, point out flaws in proposed plans of action, or simply resolve issues on my own. He can trust me to be a supportive agent that works not only for his benefit, but also for the betterment of our relationship.

The problem with Tomassi's article is that it assumes "If there is a Captain, then the First Mate will be granted consideration and status simply because he loves her." That's not how the dynamic works. The Captain has to establish himself, and create boundaries. As the woman proves herself more controlled and useful - then her input is more carefully considered. Being a First Mate is a status that has to be earned through both words and (most importantly) actions. You don't listen to a woman that has openly berated you in front of friends or family - because she has already shown that she's incapable of stepping back and making the protection of your reputation (and that of the relationship as a whole) a priority over her own selfish/petty need to 'win.' A strong relationship isn't about one individual winning, it's about both people working together and as a united front (but in different, structured ways). There are things that my SO takes care of, just as there are things I take care of, and we have built a dynamic that allows us to tackle issues in a double pronged formation, with different priorities in mind. An example would be a cowboy that ropes a bull while another person brands the rump. Both work towards the same goal, but have different duties.

The Captain First Mate dynamic allows for "mutual frame". This is not a place for a LEADER as you have written about.

There is no 'mutual frame.' The terms were set, if I want to be with Occam, there are conditions. I give deference to Occam at any and every level that he deems necessary for the health of our relationship. I am not his slave, this is not a kink, and there's no written contract. I am not devoid of self-confidence, nor do I doubt my abilities. I am an asset to him, a resource that can be directed and trusted to accomplish a myriad of tasks. If I were to suddenly go off the deep end and fight him for no reason at every step - then not only would he stop listening to me, he'd also be out the door.

Women will respond much better to a firm, sometimes nice, sometimes asshole father figure than a self promoted captain looking for her input when she shares ZERO consequences for failure

You don't 'self-promote' yourself to Captain in name - you assert yourself with actions and conduct. You create a structure that brings order to the relationship. The First Mate should always be held accountable for her own contributions and conduct. Her influence is directly proportional to the validity of her input and the consistency of her actions.

RBuddDwyer · 2015-01-25T22:02:52+00:00

It's the man's life that she is attracted to and invited to follow in. There is no need to overcomplicate it anymore that that.

strategos_autokrator · 2015-01-26T09:44:29+00:00

I'm a big fan of maritime memoirs from a 19th century bad ass. He was captain of a merchant ship that ended up cast away. His crew abandoned him in the process, every man for himself, and he was stuck with what he considered savages, protecting his wife and two kids.

You know what he did? He built tools and with the tools he build a boat from palm trees. A huge boat with several masts, big enough for his whole family to live comfortably for weeks. His wife and kids helped building it, but also, making stuff they could exchange to the locals to pay for their assistance and materials. Her wife was in charge of that part of the operation. Meanwhile he trained the locals to make nails for his boat, and bought them off them with stuff his wife and kids produced. The whole time he talks about the strength and resourcefulness of his wife and children. They were also badasses. When the boat was finished, they sailed it all the way back home.

Years later the same man built another boat, this time, by himself, and took off, by himself, and became the first man to travel around the world alone. When he came back years later, he was a world hero. And his wife divorced him.

Was his wife a great FO? Absolutely. Was he THE Captain? Yeah. Did he need the FO to get where he wanted? No. In fact, in the mission that made him make history, he had to go without an FO.

For me, this is what the Captain/FO relationship means. No covert contracts, just using the best resources you have to get the solutions you need.

leftajar · 2015-01-26T18:38:03+00:00

I think you're misunderstanding what Captain/First Mate means.

The First Mate has to submit to the Captain. Always, 100% of the time.

This analogy also reflects the truth, that she will occasionally have useful input, and she is responsible for executing some of your orders.

Try another analogy: Lieutenant/Sergeant. The Lieutenant devises the orders, and the Sergeant bosses around the privates (the children.) Similar idea.

My point is, I think we're arguing over a distinction that doesn't exist.

Title	Alternative to Captain/FirstMate- Father knows bestA
Author	theultmatecad
Upvotes	6
Comments	66
Date	January 25, 2015 6:41 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MarriedRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/2tmvw3/alternative_to_captainfirstmate_father_knows_besta/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MarriedRedPill/alternative-to-captainfirstmate-father-knows-besta.202635 https://theredarchive.com/post/202635

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