I guess gay men are objectifying women too.

memymineown · 2012-11-05T18:43:08+00:00

The article:

At a recent presentation, I asked all of the gay male students in the room to raise their hand if in the past week they touched a woman’s body without her consent. After a moment of hesitation, all of the hands of the gay men in the room went up. I then asked the same gay men to raise their hand if in the past week they offered a woman unsolicited advice about how to “improve” her body or her fashion. Once again, after a moment of hesitation, all of the hands in the room went up.

These questions came after a brief exploration of gay men’s relationship to American fashion and women’s bodies. That dialogue included recognizing that gay men in the United States are often hailed as the experts of women’s fashion and by proxy women’s bodies. In addition to this there is a dominant logic that suggests that because gay men have no conscious desire to be sexually intimate with women, our uninvited touching and groping (physical assault) is benign.

These attitudes have led many gay men to feel curiously comfortable critiquing and touching women’s bodies at whim. What’s unique about this is not the male sense of ownership to women’s bodies—that is somewhat common. What’s curious is the minimization of these acts by gay men and many women because the male perpetuating the act is or is perceived to be gay.

An example: I was at a gay club in Atlanta with a good friend of mine who is a heterosexual black woman. While dancing in the club, a white gay male reached out and grabbed both her breasts aggressively. Shocked, she pushed him away immediately. When we both confronted him he told us: “It’s no big deal, I’m gay, I don’t want her– I was just having fun.” We expressed our frustrations to him and demanded he apologize, but he simply refused. He clearly felt entitled to touch her body and could not even acknowledge the fact that he had assaulted her.

I have experienced this attitude as being very common amongst gay men. It should also be noted that in this case, she was a black woman and he a white gay male, which makes this an eyebrow-raising dynamic as it invokes the psychological history of white men’s entitlement to black women’s bodies. However it has been my experience that this dynamic of assault with gay men and women also persists within racial groups.

At another presentation, I told this same story to the audience. Almost instantly, several young women raised up their hands to be called upon. Each of them recounted a different story with a similar theme. One young woman told a story that stuck with me:

“I was feeling really cute in this outfit I put together. Then I see this gay guy I knew from class, but not very well. I had barely said hi before he began telling me what was wrong with how I looked, how I needed to lose weight, and how if I wanted to get a man I needed to do certain things… In the midst of this, he grabbed my breasts and pushed them together, to tell me how my breasts should look as opposed to how they did. It really brought me down. I didn’t know how to respond… I was so shocked.”

Her story invoked rage amongst many other women in the audience, and an obvious silence amongst the gay men present. Their silence spoke volumes. What also seemed to speak volumes, though not ever articulated verbally, was the sense that many of the heterosexual women had not responded (aggressively or otherwise) out of fear of being perceived as homophobic. (Or that their own homophobia, in an aggressive response, would reveal itself.) This, curiously to me, did not seem to be a concern for the lesbian and queer-identified women in the room at all.

Acts like these are apart of the everyday psychological warfare against women and girls that pits them against unrealistic beauty standards and ideals. It is also a part of the culture’s constant message to women that their bodies are not their own.

It’s very disturbing, but in a culture that doesn’t see gay men who are perceived as “queer” as “men” or as having male privilege, our misogyny and sexist acts are instead read as “diva worship” or “celebrating women”, even when in reality they are objectification, assault and dehumanization.

The unique way our entitlement to women’s physical bodies plays itself out is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to gay cisgender men’s sexism and privilege. This privilege does not make one a bad person any more than straight privilege makes heterosexuals bad people. It does mean that gay men can sometimes be just as unthinkingly hurtful, and unthinkingly a part of a system that participates in the oppression of others, an experience most of us can relate to. Exploration of these dynamics can lead us to query institutional systems and policies that reflect this privilege, nuanced as it is by other identities and social locations.

At the end of my last workshop on gay men’s sexism, I extended a number of questions to the gay men in the audience. I think it’s relevant to extend these same questions now:

How is your sexism and misogyny showing up in your own life, and in your relationships with your female friends, trans, lesbian, queer or heterosexual? How is it showing up in your relationship to your mothers, aunts and sisters? Is it showing up in your expectations of how they should treat you? How you talk to them? What steps can you take to address the inequitable representation of gay cisgender men in your community as leaders? How do you see that privilege showing up in your organizations and policy, and what can you do to circumvent it? How will you talk to other gay men in your community about their choices and interactions with women, and how will you work to hold them and yourself accountable?

These are just some of the questions we need to be asking ourselves so that we can help create communities where sexual or physical assault, no matter who is doing it, is deemed unacceptable. These are the kinds of questions we as gay men need to be asking ourselves so that we can continue (or for some begin) the work of addressing gender/sex inequity in our own communities, as well as in our own hearts and minds. This is a part of our healing work. This is a part of our transformation. This is a part of our accountability.

Jiral · 2012-11-05T18:20:28+00:00

This link showed up in my Facebook feed several times. Here's the argument I made against it:

This article totally has a point in that it's absolutely not okay for gay men to touch women without their consent, but it's also not okay for women to touch me without my consent.

The article perpetuates gay stereotypes and also ignores the opposite side of the argument where girls who would call themselves "faghags" physically force themselves on gay men and assume that every gay guy loves shopping and wants to be their best friend. I feel just as violated when a girl comes up to me and grinds me like it doesn't matter "because I'm gay".

levelate · 2012-11-05T18:45:25+00:00

is this where gay men get thrown under the bus?

expect more of this crap as more and more gay men (and we have a few gay folks here) come out as opposed to feminist theory.

seems to me, that any man (regardless of sexual orientation) is a target to feminists.

Psionx0 · 2012-11-05T18:47:42+00:00

This article is bullshit. Not only are many many gay men absolutely uninterested in touching a woman's body at any time (I'm one of them), but the authors assertion of -every gay man in the presentation- is laughable. Maybe she means every Fem, gay guy. Or perhaps she meant only the "metrosexuals" raised their hand. Fucking drivel.

typhonblue · 2012-11-05T22:12:07+00:00

Oh look.

Another feminist article explaining how women are the victims of something or some group.

Wow. I didn't see that one coming.

2012-11-05T22:47:17+00:00

It's a blatant power check. It's all a racket. "Hey, gay men, feminist support you, but never forget that you are still men and beneath us."

2012-11-05T23:26:54+00:00

The Good Men Project is basically just SRS.

I'm gay, I don't give a fuck about fashion, let alone women's fashion, I don't touch women's tits, and I don't care about women's bodies. Fuck this article and the ponce who wrote it.

2012-11-06T00:39:13+00:00

Considering the number of women who have absolutely no issue groping any male they so desire- gay, straight, bi, or otherwise- without even thinking they need to ask...

/shrug

actanonverba8 · 2012-11-06T05:16:52+00:00

Gay men have been a convenient ally for feminists. That's all. As soon as females get total supremacy they will turn on them just like they currently do with straight men (especially straight white men).

I really, really hope that gay men become mainstreamed into the men's rights efforts. They are a fantastic ally (forget who is left or right or this or that, I'm just talking about men's rights). Their immunity to female sexual power gives them a leg up (They are still just as susceptible to the gynocentric brainwashing as children-from mom, babysitters, daycare workers, female teachers, etc. and via the culture at large).

They are potential men's rights powerhouses and I for one welcome them with open arms.

sp8der · 2012-11-06T18:08:47+00:00

Oh bull fucking shit.

By and large, it's the straight women who come bounding up to us going "Ohhhh, I love gay guys, you should be my Gay Best Friend, we should go shopping and talk about boys and eeeeeeeeeee"

I couldn't be less interested in being your human fashion accessory. Shopping is fun when I'm buying stuff for me. And your guy troubles bore me, and I often agree with the guy in question anyway.

They need to step the fuck off. I have to wonder if the little episode at the beginning of that piece actually happened at all, and I suspect not.

SarcastiCock · 2012-11-05T21:36:21+00:00

Gay men are the new scapegoat. Check your privilege.

I've seen women complaining online that it's a conspiracy among gay fashion designers to keep fashion models underweight.

ENTP · 2012-11-06T03:26:05+00:00

At a recent presentation, I asked all of the straight female students with gay male friends in the room to raise their hand if in the past week they touched a gay man's body without his consent. After a moment of hesitation, all of the hands of the women in the room went up.

exposed your double standard for you

2012-11-06T06:14:50+00:00

Let's put women on a pedestal and pretend that they are immune from human contact. Actually, better idea, let's just put them in black sheets from head to toe!

Seriously though, most women don't mind when gay men touch them. I know because they tell me.

SarcastiCock · 2012-11-05T19:49:30+00:00

That's quite an interesting comment section...gay menz privilige mithogeny!...homophobic stereotypes...get out the popcorn.

Ma99ie · 2012-11-06T05:27:35+00:00

It just get more ridiculous the more gender warriors pollute reasonable discourse with flat at inane stupidity. How much can a person feel victimized?

Title	I guess gay men are objectifying women too.
Author	Jiral
Upvotes	7
Comments	48
Date	November 5, 2012 6:16 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/12ofpe/i_guess_gay_men_are_objectifying_women_too/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-guess-gay-men-are-objectifying-women-too.1009854 https://theredarchive.com/post/1009854

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