Been lurking /r/MensRights for a while, and I was thinking that in many cases, men's rights and women's rights can be one and the same.

RealQuickPoint · 2012-10-31T01:50:18+00:00

can't women's rights and men's rights be one and the same? Can't we all join together and pursue... equality?

Short answer: Yes, though I disagree with "abolish all gender roles" as an effective tactic. Longer answer: They can totally be complimentary, but trying to solve men's issues though solving all of women's issues first (and/or abolishment of gender roles) is like sailing around South America to deliver medicine to the Philippines when you have the Panama canal. You're extending the suffering of others when you don't have to.

Also, be forewarned: You'll probably (understandably) be called a concern troll. You might even be one. We get a topic about once a week here from someone claiming to want to be on our side, but if only we would do things their way. The fact that you made a throw-away does not help this perception, sorry.

MechPlasma · 2012-10-31T01:53:02+00:00

Yeees, technically, but that's really only hiding away the problem - namely, that there's actual unchecked sexism going on. All these things that would make rape accusations and alimony payments less likely would reduce discrimination, but there'll always be sexism until people start becoming aware that there is, and that it's not okay.

oneiorosgrip · 2012-10-31T03:08:07+00:00

Virginity and chastity are highly valued in our culture, and as a result women often feel guilt when they pursue their natural sexual needs. This is one driving cause of false rape accusations. Could the empowerment of female sexuality not lead to a decrease in the frequency of rape accusations? Could encouraging women that pre-marital sex is not only okay, but healthy, lead to less guilt and conflict?

This is a function of female social attitudes. Feminism has been around for decades. The sexual revolution (for women) has been in full swing for decades. If we're still in the dark ages regarding attitudes toward female sexual behavior, it's because women aren't doing anything about that.

Beyond that, feelings of regret over a choice made does not excuse blaming another individual for that choice, and leveling criminal accusations as a means of shifting responsibility. Your cognitive dissonance argument does not, as you're attempting, place the blame for false allegations on men. Instead, it shows that you think women are incapable of handling our own choices.

The more women are taught to take care of themselves, to get educated, to pursue careers, the more likely it is that they will pay alimony.

We have that now. Women are fully supported now in getting educated, pursuing careers, and taking care of ourselves. It hasn't changed the way family court judges view wives and girlfriends in divorce, custody, and child support disputes.

The more we let go of this idea that men are powerful and less capable of emotion, the more likely men will gain custody of their children.

Those concepts are all unrelated. Why place them together as if they have meaning toward each other?

The less we think of men as strong and women as not, the more male rape victims will be believed, and the less women will appear as easy targets.

Take public funding away from women's advocacy groups, and you might see that change occur. Advocates for women as victims pit the perception of men being strong and violent abusers against the perception of women being weak and helpless victims in order to garner support for legislation which will increase their power (the advocacy groups, not women in general) in the legal system. In the context of rape, this is translated into the assertion that men rape, and women are raped, but the same pattern exists throughout the spectrum of human violence. The male-perp, female-victim perception is used to promote the belief that women need the protection of advocacy groups to deal with the threat supposedly presented by men... which in turn is used to convince politicians and the public to continue funding advocacy groups. Remove the money, and you remove the motivation to maintain that illusion.

I know these are just a few points on a myriad of important male/female issues, but I guess what I'm asking is this: can't women's rights and men's rights be one and the same? Can't we all join together and pursue... equality?

This again? If you had really been lurking here for a while, you'd know that question gets asked in here every week. Even buried in your post as it is, it still identifies you as a concern troll. If you want my answer to it, that's in my blog, in the combination of two posts: HERE and HERE.

ignatiusloyola · 2012-10-31T02:26:27+00:00

Women's rights != Feminism.

ClaudeKenni · 2012-10-31T08:28:24+00:00

The difficulty here is the difference between social pressures and the law in gender issues. While I can agree with you that those changes in how women see issues such as sex and financial independence might help, none of those things changes the inbalance in the law, in both word and how it is applied, which causes women to get custody in almost all cases, unreasonable financial payments, an assumption that they are completely truthful in all cases of rape and domestic violence.

While mainstream feminism blocks attempts to change the law (look here to see that it's not just outliers), and while it also continues to be based upon patriarchy theory (which is a core belief of mainstream feminism, which does not reflect the reality of western culture today), it's difficult for us to see these as outliers, rather than a reflection of mainstream feminist belief.

We want equality for men, and we are happy to work with anyone whose goal is equality, whether they are coming from a perspective of women's rights, LGBT rights, egalitarianism, left or right wing politically, it makes no difference, as we're always open to discuss and engage with people. We're happy to work with those who would call themselves feminists as long as they do not try to perpetuate inequality by fighting against equal rights for men.

ghebert001 · 2012-10-31T02:45:56+00:00

Women don't have many, if any at all, life or death issues at the moment. Other than breast cancer, which gets more awareness than a Kardashian's sex life, are there any women's issues that compare to the neglect in men's health issues, homelessness, higher suicide rates, higher job death rates, higher victimization to rape and DV?

Don't get me wrong...it's most definitely not about who has it worse. The fact that women and their issues are being pandered to by politicians and the rest of society while men's issues are dismissed as non-existent indicates that although we both have issues, they are not the same issues and they are certainly not treated the same.

yopp343 · 2012-10-31T05:20:15+00:00

I'm all for it but the problem is all it takes is one extremist on either side to poison the well and it's back to "Oh all feminists/MRA's are like that, screw them".

ErasmusMRA · 2012-10-31T06:25:56+00:00

Could the empowerment of female sexuality not lead to a decrease in the frequency of rape accusations? Could encouraging women that pre-marital sex is not only okay, but healthy, lead to less guilt and conflict?

What do you mean by "empowerment of female sexuality"? What rights are women denied here? I couldn't care less what they do with their body as long as it doesn't interfere with my rights. If they want to fuck half the football team, more power to them. They have that right and no one is stopping them. I certainly haven't seen much slut shaming here in MR. Most slut shaming is done by women to keep the price of sex high.

truthjusticeca · 2012-10-31T01:55:50+00:00

Custody battles. Alimony. Divorce settlements in general going in favor of women and not men.
Being wrongfully accused of rape by a regretful or vengeful female.
The expectation that all men must be strong, make money, be chivalrous, and put women first for no other reason than that they're women.

The status quo is all to the benefit of women, including reproductive rights. Please explain why "equality" is not a zero sum game, anybody?

rightsbot · 2012-10-31T01:40:18+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

DavidByron · 2012-10-31T21:44:08+00:00

can't women's rights and men's rights be one and the same?

Feminists have been painting the relationship between men and women as one of subhuman filth rapist violent men against innocent angelic oppressed women for over 150 years now. Only by condemning feminist hate can your concept ever be reasonable.

women often feel guilt when they pursue their natural sexual needs. This is one driving cause of false rape accusations

It is? Why on earth would you say that. That's one of the most misogynistic things I've ever seen on this subreddit. False rape accusations are a terrible crime and you appear to be suggesting average women would resort to it out of some sort of dissatisfaction with sex.

The women who resort to that crime are not average women. They are criminals along the same lines as rapists (of either sex). It's like saying "men rape because they get blue balls". No they don't because men as a whole, don't rape. Same for women and false rape accusations.

Actual recorded motivations for false rape accusations are typically trivial and narcissistic such as "I needed an excuse for being late home" or "I wanted my bf to prove he loved me by beating someone up".

Because the women who do this stuff are sick. Not like ordinary women.

themountaingoat · 2012-11-01T02:27:45+00:00

Yes, women's issues cannot advance any further while ignoring the male side of the issue. Since men face actually legal discrimination now days and haven't had a movement advocating for them for 100+ years male issues need to be looked at first. Also, almost everything the feminist movement does now days actually increases male gender roles if it is not actively discriminating against men, which means, oddly enough that feminism is hurting women's issues.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-10-31T07:46:11+00:00

THIS THREAD! AGAIN! Twice daily.

Comments