Am I wrong for thinking this?

Hach8 · 2012-09-12T21:01:59+00:00

You're not wrong. The issue of victim blaming is something I've been thinking about writing... something on.

There are many problems with your mother's logic. Not the least of which is the assumption that you can simply "teach" people out of crime. If that worked, we could eliminate all instances of assault and murder very quickly. The problem is, this is simply not a realistic solution. No amount of education will eliminate crime entirely. It can reduce crime, but it will not likely ever eliminate it, and the fact of the matter is, rape is a crime. The other fact of the matter is that we are taught not to rape, and socially we are taught that rape is one of, if not the worst crime a man can commit.

The other problem with your mothers logic is the one of female hypoagency. That is to say, that women do not have the power to make decisions which could mitigate their risk or protect themselves. Either that or women should not have to worry about such things. In that way, it almost comes from a very privileged perspective - that women should not be required to modify their behavior in the world, and the would should bend to their will (particularly men). It's a bit of a stretch, and no one should "expect" to be a victim of a crime, but the refusal in such situations does come off abrasively.

There is nothing wrong with teaching people how to mitigate risks, particularly risks of being victims of crime. This morning on the news they were talking about strings of burglaries. They said many criminals were getting in via unlocked gates, unlocked back doors, etc. and to protect themselves people should make sure their house is secure while they are away, and should also inform their neighbors when they go on a trip (so they can spot things like "movers" who would show up on vacation to steal things).

Giving this type of advice is rational and reasonable, and it is similar to some of the advice you might give an individual to reduce their risk of being victimized. It's also the furthest thing from victim blaming, but that's another (long) post entirely

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-09-12T22:27:50+00:00

One is not responsible for becoming a victim of a crime, but they are responsible for managing the risks of becoming a victim of a crime.

CaptainChewbacca · 2012-09-12T22:56:39+00:00

Doesn't this presuppose that the only reason rape happens is because rapist are unaware that they're not supposed to rape women? Like they think they're fine until the police show up and then its 'Oh dang, really?!'

JockeVXO · 2012-09-12T22:22:44+00:00

Teach her not to rape. Educate her on how not to rape the men and women in her life.

The_Patriarchy · 2012-09-12T20:16:59+00:00

Ask her if she also agrees that women should be educated about not murdering their children.

2012-09-12T22:02:01+00:00

You are being reasonable except you keep expecting other people to be reasonable when they repeatedly demonstrate they cannot when it comes to this topic.

southernasshole · 2012-09-12T22:53:27+00:00

You're not wrong, it's just taboo to think that women should be held to any basic level of personal responsibility for their own well being.

2012-09-13T00:31:23+00:00

You are absolutely, 100%.....

....

....not wrong in thinking that.

People 100% have a responsibility to protect themselves.

ForMensRights · 2012-09-12T22:28:20+00:00

How come nobody goes apeshit when someone suggest ways you can avoid being mugged or killed.......... but they do when someone suggest ways you can avoid being raped?

DerpaNerb · 2012-09-13T02:34:12+00:00

I mean, people don't freak out when you suggest that people wear seatbelts, use condoms or wear bike helmets.

I think you hit the nail on the head there (I've used that exact same argument myself).

It's not victim blaming to suggest someone take steps to reduce their chances of being a victim. This is standard practice for EVERY other crime in the world, rape is no different. That being said, to tell someone after they have already become a victim that "you should have or shouldn't have done X", would be insensitive.

What people like your mother (honestly she is not that unique in her viewpoint... every feminist I've talked to shares it) need to realize, is that the issue is NOT the fact that some people are unaware of the law. It's useless to tell a rapist not to rape, the whole reason they are raping is because they don't give a fuck about what the law or victim says about rape (I'm using the actual definition of rape here). So yeah, what we know is this:

People become criminals by committing a crime.
People commit a crime because they obviously do not care about the law
It is impossible to arrest a person before they become a criminal by committing a crime (this isn't "the Minority Report"
Now in order for there to be a crime, there has to be a victim. So if people continue to commit crimes, then people will continue to become victims.

Now what this means, is that there is a non-zero chance that someone can become a victim. What this also means, is that there are ways that someone can reduce their chances of becoming a victim. Some of these ways may be reasonable, and some are not (you could theoretically reduce your chances of becoming a victim by building a castle and never leaving it while hiring 40 knights to patrol your alligator filled moat... but obviously that's not reasonable).

Now if someone chooses to partake in an activity that results in a significant increase in the probability of them becoming a victim... then they are simply gambling with their life.

The point is, avoiding these actions, or performing other actions that reduce your chances (if it's shown to have a significant impact and it's reasonable) JUST MAKES SENSE. That is exactly why wearing a seatbelt is now mandatory almost everywhere. It is little to no hassle and has a massive impact on your chance of surviving a car accident. This is also why car makers install locks on their doors, because doing so (and using them) results in a significant reduction in the chance your shit gets stolen.

That being said, the victim is still just that... the victim, it is always the criminals fault. Now THAT being said, if you becoming a victim is a direct result of your action/inaction (and it's reasonable thing to do/not do), then I would just have to say that you aren't very smart for gambling with your life like that.

As much as anyone would like it to be so... we do not live in a perfect world and people should take steps to ensure their safety.

ghebert001 · 2012-09-13T00:26:51+00:00

You're absolutely 100% right on this. Your mom and many other men and women feel that women should not have any accountability for their own actions or inactions. This infantilizes women and takes away their adult agency. If I were a woman, I would be completely offended by this if I didn't stand to benefit from it.

Why is a woman's safety anyone's responsibility but her own? Tell people not to rape is not the answer. People are going to do what people are going to do and sometimes bad people do bad things. You wear sunscreen to protect yourself from the sun...you don't go trying to tell the sun to not emit UV rays. You lock your doors to protect yourself from burglary, you don't tell people not to burgle. You avoid bad neighbourhoods and don't accept drinks that aren't sealed among other things to protect yourself from rape or assault...you don't tell people not to rape. You can't control what other people do any more than you can control the sun.

2012-09-13T01:39:24+00:00

I would point out we teach people to be careful concerning every other crime, and then ask what's so different and rape.

Women shouldn't have to watch their kids, we need to teach people not to kidnap! Just think how much time and effort we drain from women because we tell them to take care of their children! /s

ENTP · 2012-09-13T02:43:22+00:00

Only rapists rape, and no matter how much you "educate" them, they're not going to stop raping.

It's like saying, "teach muggers not to mug".

Common sense and good decisions can decrease the risk of crimes being perpetrated against you. Pepper spray is a must, if you work in or live in a bad neighborhood. To protect from any potential assailant. Avoiding well known bad parts of town.

Besides that, the most common rapist is someone the victim knows, so it shouldn't really matter what a woman is wearing.

That said, regardless of what a woman does or wears, it is NOT her fault if she gets raped. Nobody is to blame but the rapist.

OuiCrudites · 2012-09-13T03:52:02+00:00

"Women should take responsibility for stopping false rape accusations."

"Black people should take responsibility for stopping the crack smoking."

"Latinos should take responsibility for stopping harboring illegals in their communities."

How come it's only OK when it's a man? Oh, right....Feminism.

railmaniac · 2012-09-13T04:25:01+00:00

Here's how I look at it: in an ideal world your mother would be right and no one rape other people.

But we are not in an ideal world. We're in this world. You can either take precautions for the real world, or you can choose to believe you are in an ideal world and rely on the good intentions of your fellow humans beings.

HoopyFreud · 2012-09-13T04:27:24+00:00

I'm going to repost this here:
Let's start from the assumption that those people who rape people violently and in full possession of their faculties are at least moderately sociopathic. The question of rape committed while the attacker is under the influence of some mind-altering substance can be disregarded, and so can the question of rape committed while the victim was impaired (but consenting) or unconscious and the attacker was unaware or unconscious of that fact or of the victim's objections to sex while in that impaired state. The classic example of this is that one of two people who are in a relationship initiates (and possibly concludes) sex while the other is asleep. Some couples would be OK with this, while some would not. These limits should be expressly laid out beforehand, but I'll move in, lest I get distracted. Those are cases in which the attacker is operating under a foreign influence or does not perceive what he is doing as rape. At any rate, I think that it's safe to say that any person who consciously commits a rape while in full possession of their faculties is sociopathic to some degree. That statement therefore implies that all men must be taught to overcome innate sociopathic tendencies, and it implies that a man who is not taught "not to rape" would become a rapist. I'm deeply offended by the assumption that my entire gender is sociopathic. Furthermore, when attempts are made to educate women about precautions that they can take, we're told that we're blaming the victims. Unfortunately, sociopathy, while somewhat manageable, is usually incurable. That means that socipaths are going to keep acting sociopathically, and there's nothing that we can do to them unless they commit a crime. It's not a matter of blaming the victims; it's a matter of protecting them. A useful parallel might be a poster that says "Teach Muslims to not blow shit up." That sign completely misses the facts that Muslims aren't the only people who blow shit up and that most Muslims don't blow shit up. Additionally, nobody claims that the increased security that was instituted after 9/11 was victim blaming; the notion seems absurd. Why, then, is it fair to go after males for the rapes that a few men commit, and to decry any effort to allow the would-be victims to protect themselves?

FartAwayYourWorries · 2012-09-13T05:28:04+00:00

I'm going to assume your mother has told you to be careful on numerous occasions growing up, and as an adult. Told you not to do things for your own safety, Eg:

Don't walk home alone after dark, call me instead to pick you up.
Don't hang around Johnny, he's trouble.
Don't leave your laptop in the car where it can be seen. You're just encouraging theft.

All you need to do is mention all the times she has told you to change your behaviour to reduce or avoid risks. Then point out by her logic that all those comments can be now ignored because "One shouldn't take responsibility for their own safety". Maybe suggest that you're going to start doing something that you know she would hate because of these new revelations.

You won't change her mind about women and rape by attacking that. If you reframe the issue using her kids instead, you've got a chance of connecting.

2012-09-13T13:21:45+00:00

You are in no way wrong. Teaching women how to protect themselves from rape isn't victim blaming at all. It's taking a precautionary action against a real life threat. No different than someone that wants to learn martial arts to defend themselves.

Everyone is absolutely responsible for their own safety preparation. It's never someone's fault when their safety is threatened, but it is up to them to educate themselves and be prepared for any possibilities. To walk around thinking otherwise is just being dishonest with yourself, and teaching anyone that learning to protect yourself is "victim blaming" just puts them at greater risk if something does happen.

LibAtheist · 2012-09-13T14:27:29+00:00

Sheep who don't take their self defense seriously are easy targets for the wolves. Your mother lives in a fantasy land.

Muaythai9 · 2012-09-14T03:09:56+00:00

Situational awareness is extremely important IMO you are not wrong,you never know who will take what the wrong way though man

EDIT: Ninja edited

rightsbot · 2012-09-12T20:02:19+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

kungfukai · 2012-09-13T07:13:59+00:00

She said that men should be educated about not raping women.

So she's saying that it's in mens nature to rape? You've got to be kidding.

Freddie_AppsHero · 2012-09-13T11:11:28+00:00

No, you're not. Teaching women (and everybody else, for that matter) about being safe while out and about is not victim blaming, it's common sense. And it's a far site more sensible than barking at every man not to rape.

Dirty_Delta · 2012-09-13T15:51:59+00:00

The funny thing about laws is, criminals break them regardless of how many times you tell them not to.

2012-09-14T02:10:42+00:00

Here's what I always say about this.

Using these tips will only go so far. In the case of male-on-female stranger rape (which is a rare form of rape), men who are rapists generally seek out victims. If one woman prudently decides to use these tips, then another woman will be the victim, and the cycle will keep going on. The male rapist will look for the lowest common denominator.

So, that's why I don't advocate it as a complete solution. Although, I think the reaction is much worse.

By "Telling MEN not to rape!", we don't solve the problem either. Most rapists don't care, and it insults the decent men who do not rape.

I think the way to stop male-on-female rape is to get actual help and consideration for male victims, because many people who are rapists were raped themselves. I think that's the most reasonable solution, than this bout about women covering up and telling men not to rape.

2012-09-13T01:53:35+00:00

Imo you are also missing the point. The fact is actual violent rape (sex under the threat of physical force) is very rare in the USA. Unless there is some very unusual situation people should feel safe from rape (since they mostly are) and not worry about it. The real risks in life (cancer, obesity, car accidents) are what should concern people.

cronus85 · 2012-09-13T02:19:13+00:00

You would be wrong if you are trying to tell women how to dress. I've always hated the logic associated with that argument.

You should however remind people to stay in well lit areas, mind your drinks and travel in pairs. These are practical measures to protect people of either gender from physical or sexual violence on a night out.

Manzboobz · 2012-09-12T21:29:29+00:00

Tell your mom that until ALL men are properly taught not to rape, then a self defense class is a good idea.

VerySpecialSnowflake · 2012-09-12T20:31:45+00:00

So how are men supposed to protect themselves from rape? As for your other examples (seatbelts, condoms, helmets), the reason people don't go apeshit about suggesting these safety measures is because driving (or riding in a car), sex, and bike-riding/skateboarding are all activities in which people consensually engage and no crime is being acted upon them.

joetheyfit · 2012-09-12T20:08:52+00:00

seatbelts, condoms and bike helmets are hardly analogous to penetrative rape. It's physically harder for a woman to defend against rape than it is for a man to resist raping someone. Most rapists are known to the woman who is raped (for clarity's sake I am ignoring MoM rape) so it's hard to defend against that in the sense of changing behaviour or being aware of one's surroundings.

why not ask on /askreddit?

EDG02 · 2012-09-12T20:52:56+00:00

You fucking American bastard.

Now that I have calmed down: yes, you're wrong. I just "love" (S A R C A S M if you couldn't tell) the rape culture Americans push on the world.

Title	Am I wrong for thinking this?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	55
Comments	92
Date	September 12, 2012 8:01 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/zs6va/am_i_wrong_for_thinking_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/am-i-wrong-for-thinking-this.1013649 https://theredarchive.com/post/1013649

Comments