Rape culture

2012-05-06T21:59:59+00:00

I think a lot of men are getting fed up with all the rape culture talk because they've never even had sex and are probably so put off by this ridiculousness that they're just going not have sex at all. Then all the feminists are going to complain about the cowardly penises cowering in their pants. Nothing is ever going to be good enough. No wonder there are mgtows. A litte hyperbole here, but jeez.

JockeVXO · 2012-05-06T22:09:51+00:00

First off, that is your definition of rape-culture, I've heard several others.

Second, what Barney does in HIMYM is not rape. Anyone who thinks that is delusional. Granted, I have not seen all episodes, so if he's actually committed rape in one of them, my apologies.

Third, rape is not illegal because it can have a disastrous effect on people's feelings, it's illegal because it violates their rights.

Fourth, you're being very gynocentric. Rapes against men are socially accepted (and oftentimes legally as well) and condoned, especially if the rapist is a woman. And I mean rape as in forced to have sex, not as in 'When you said you were bisexual and up for a threesome, you lied to me just to get me into bed' rape lite crap.

Edit: If you actually wanted a TV show where rape is condoned (and "contributes to rape-culture") you should have gone with Married with Children. The number of times Al is raped by Peggy is astounding and I recall Bud being raped more than once as well. But I guess those scenarios wouldn't fit your feminist narrative...

TheSacredParsnip · 2012-05-06T21:49:27+00:00

I'm sure this will be a fun conversation, I hope it stays civil.

His life revolves around bullshitting drunk women to trick them into having sex with him.

This is not rape. Rape is a crime that carries with it minimum prison sentences and an average prison sentence of somewhere near 5 to 8 years.

But the reason we ban rape is its effect on the victim (and moral issues). If those effects are present only 1 in 10 cases, then that is seriously bad. It might be rape lite, but it's still rape.

If you want to call sex with a woman under false pretenses rape, then that's fine. In other words, if a woman has sex with a man but he has deceived her in some way then it is rape. But, I'm not at all comfortable with sentencing this hypothetical man to prison. It just doesn't make sense to me. If you think it does, then please inform me.

They're saying a lot of people are cool with lying to a girl, repeatedly asking when they don't want to, catching them when they're drunk or feeding them drinks in order to intentionally take advantage of them.

Lying to a girl to get sex =/= rape. It can equal something else, but not rape as it's written in the law today.

Repeatedly asking when they don't want to. If there's some type of threat then I would agree that this would be rape. But, if a guy just says "have sex with me" fifty times and finally the girl says "yes" then I can't see that as rape either. There are obviously situations where it could be.

Catching them when they're drunk? It really sounds like we're treating these women like they're children doesn't it? The drunk thing is another questionable point for me. Is it rape every time a man has sex with a drunk woman? Is it only rape if the man pursues the drunk woman? Is it only rape if the man pursues the drunk woman because he knows she'll be more likely to have sex with him?

The only situation's that I can consider rape (until someone proves me wrong) are when there is force, threat of force, some other threat, fear of force by some overt act on the part of the assailant, or inebriation to the point of unconsciousness. I'm sure more could be added, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

ENTP · 2012-05-06T22:49:04+00:00

There is no "rape culture".

Every non-rapist agrees: rape is horrific and awful.

In fact, some of the toughest sentences are handed out to rapists, and even a man simply accused (falsely) of rape will have his life and future ruined.

What DOES exist is misandrist culture, in which all men are demonized as potential rapists, with bullshit non-evidence based claims of "patriarchy" and "rape culture" in a western context.

"Rape culture", like other feminist theory and dogma, like "patriarchy" and "pervasive male privilege" is not based in evidence, and demonizes men.

kekgomba · 2012-05-06T22:53:37+00:00

The problem with you argument as I see it is that you are trying to ascribe a word to a situation to which it does not fit. You claim >bullshitting drunk women to trick them into having sex... [is] still rape Rape is not "tricking" someone into having sex; rape is forcing someone to have sex. These are very different actions, akin to the difference between someone tricking you out of your money, and someone mugging you. These are two distinct actions, you can debate whether they are moral, you can debate whether they should be illegal; what you cannot do is claim them to be the same action and imply that condonation of one implies condonation of the other.

That said there is certainly some murky water in between them, just as in my example, there is a point in which someone tricking you out of your money is so fraudulent that they might as well have mugged you. Similarly, there is a point in which tricking someone into sex is so fraudulent that it may as well have been rape, say someone wearing a mask and pretending to be a boyfriend or girlfriend, a la Revenge of the Nerds. Is this on the same level of Barney's pranks? It's certainly debatable, but to automatically assume all levels of manipulation are on the same level of coercion simply does not work and it is what you are trying to do here.

Finally, I'd like to bring up why a show like How I Met Your Mother makes light of these tricks, even though most would agree they are certainly immoral. It's because its a comedy and comedies make light otherwise serious or contentious matters. They make light of death, of murder, of domestic violence, hell, I've seen a sitcom in which a man attempting suicide was supposed to be funny. Looking for comedic example to support your cause is not the best source of evidence. Look at real world, (or at least non-comedic fiction), for how we treat people who use trickery with sex. Cheating, for example, is tricking your significant other while, presumably, still having sex with them, and it is seen horridly in out culture.

Demonspawn · 2012-05-06T21:37:54+00:00

The fact that our society has equated "he talked me into it" with "rape" is the problem.

If somebody can find a way to rationalize away why they should take responsibility for their actions, they will.

That's exactly what "rape culture" is... women trying to not take responsibility for their own decisions, and to treat men with criminal liability for said women who don't want to take responsibility for their own decision to have sex with a guy.

But the reason we ban rape is its effect on the victim (and moral issues).

The reason we make rape illegal is because if it's violation of a persons right to choose whom they will have sex with. Laws exist to punish violations of rights, not violations of feelings.

drinkthebleach · 2012-05-06T22:09:47+00:00

If you think getting drunk and fucking a random dude is ever going to go out of style, you're mistaken. If you think people can't consent while drunk, then obviously we need to outlaw alcohol.

OThomson · 2012-05-06T21:59:11+00:00

Another feminist sympathiser trying to expand the definition of rape beyond is remit, also drunk sex isn't rape....

ZimbaZumba · 2012-05-06T23:05:59+00:00

From Wikipedia and other sources we get this definition

"Rape culture is a term or concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone sexual violence"

That is pretty unequivocal.

AntiFeministMedia · 2012-05-06T22:50:57+00:00

So Embogenous believes in feminist 'rape culture'.

This person has come here and repeatedly stated that MRA's should be working with feminists.

Absolute madness.

rightsbot · 2012-05-06T21:20:17+00:00

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alltoohum4n · 2012-05-06T22:50:42+00:00

The issue here may be that you do not feel that is rape. And I wouldn't say it always is. Yeah, women choose to drink, and they did "consent". But the reason we ban rape is its effect on the victim (and moral issues). If those effects are present only 1 in 10 cases, then that is seriously bad. It might be rape lite, but it's still rape.

Suppose it's true that rape is banned wholly because of its effects on the victim. This does not mean that a different action which even sometimes has similar consequences is rape. That's what your argument seems to imply: if something can even sometimes have similar consequences to rape, then it is rape. I don't see any justification for this.

So when somebody says "rape is normalized in our society", they aren't saying everybody is cool with pinning down a girl while she cries and begs to get away. They're saying a lot of people are cool with lying to a girl, repeatedly asking when they don't want to, catching them when they're drunk or feeding them drinks in order to intentionally take advantage of them. And maybe that's not even that common, I don't really know, I'd be relying on anecdotes. But others feel that is the problem, and when you say "nobody I know would condone rape!" it totally misses the point.

Analogy: So when I say that "theft is normalized in our society", I'm not saying everybody is cool with breaking into someone's home and taking stuff, they're saying a lot of people are cool with lying to someone, or repeatedly asking, or buttering someone up with a few drinks until they give in and let you borrow what you want to borrow. This is what I feel the problem is, and when you say "nobody I know would condone theft!" it totally misses the point.

(Note: The point here is that no matter how much one dislikes someone trying to borrow something in that way, it doesn't make it theft, and so can't be "normalizing theft".)

PartTimeBadman · 2012-05-06T21:31:42+00:00

The biggest mistake that was ever made in regards to rape culture was subtitling it with "Men support rape culture." This one mis-step has meant that men can stick their fingers in their ears, shut their eyes real tight and scream "They're ridiculous for saying that!"

If the anti-rape-culture folks had said "Men are unaware of rape culture" then I think the debate would be vastly different.

edit: from AntiFeministMediavia /r/MensRights/ sent 58 seconds ago

show parent

So you also believe in 'rape culture'. What a suprise..

Just in case anyone missed AntiFeministMedia replying and then deleting his comment. :)

Collective82 · 2012-05-07T04:23:18+00:00

So if a dude totally blitzed takes home a girl that he would gnaw his arm off to get away and scrub with a brillo pad to get clean again, thats rape? huh weird as I have seen that many times in the military but its not rape then.

Title	Rape culture
Author	Embogenous
Upvotes	0
Comments	84
Date	May 6, 2012 9:18 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ta6ku/rape_culture/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/rape-culture.1022384 https://theredarchive.com/post/1022384

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