There is no one Feminism.

Kuonji · 2010-12-14T06:44:11+00:00

"Oh hey. You can't make generalizations about feminism because feminism has so many definitions! You should stop thinking feminism is just 'one thing'. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to explain exactly what feminism is to you"

ycombinator · 2010-12-14T07:13:27+00:00

Either trolling or naive. Which one?

Gigafrost · 2010-12-14T08:40:42+00:00

There is no one feminism, but the principles and ideology of 2nd wave feminism permeate our legal and educational systems, where they have arguably done more harm than good to men's rights. The fundamental axiom of 2nd wave feminist ideology is the patriarchy hypothesis: the conjecture that all men are privileged as a class over women. This makes ideological feminists hostile to any suggestion that men are disadvantaged in any way. It also leads to the "one sided equality", where equality is something that only benefits women, and anything that benefits women is considered equality, regardless of its impact on men.

Yes, there are other feminisms, and many who call them selves feminists do not subscribe to the patriarchy ideology. But most of the feminists with the real political power to write laws and judicial decisions are second wave feminists who are hostile to the notion of men's rights.

EvilPundit · 2010-12-14T09:30:45+00:00

Feminism has a prejudice.

All feminism is based on the myth that men oppress women. Therefore, all feminism believes that men are the enemy. Consequently, all feminism discriminates against men.

There may be a movement for sexual equality somewhere - but it is not, and cannot be, feminism.

kloo2yoo · 2010-12-14T06:42:22+00:00

If I say Feminists believe X, then someone can say she's a feminist, and she believes X+Y, and therefore I'm wrong. No matter which definition I choose, there's someone who can disagree with it and use it as an example of me building a strawman argument or to play 'no true scotsman'. One of the fundamental characteristics of feminisim is nebulousness.

aetheralloy · 2010-12-14T08:31:53+00:00

If it is so ill-defined, then women shouldn't call themselves feminists and expect any kind of support.

Yet they do. So there is more to this issue than the op is willing to admit.

ShakeyBobWillis · 2010-12-14T16:22:47+00:00

"Feminism" is not an enemy of men, prejudice is.

Feminism has a gender prejudice in the name itself, can you spot it? But its ok, its just hard for some to admit. MRA have a prejudice toward men's issues. It seems natural. Until we can all join /r/equality, it will be unequal by definition.

spice_weasel · 2010-12-15T01:53:09+00:00

Feminism certainly isn't the friend of men in any of the variations you mentioned. There really isn't a place for most men in feminist spaces, and as a result men can't be represented in that movement.

What I mean by this is that the structure and tradition of feminist discourse is set up in a way that minimizes or eliminates the possibility for men to meaningfully contribute. Feminist discussions have a whole host of background devices that have this effect. The "PHMT"/"WATM" and "check your privilege" argumentative devices are particularly culpable in this regard - they serve no real purpose except to limit male participation in the discourse. Sure, at times such tools might be necessary in order to keep threads from being derailed, but their prevalence has a powerfully chilling effect on participation. This is particularly a problem because so much of what is discussed in feminist circles is based upon the personal experiences of the people talking. Men and women will have different experiences, and since feminist discourse has a tradition of focusing on the female experience (and men are discouraged from injecting their own experiences into the conversation), men can have no real place except to dumbly agree and "empathize." To me, and to many men, this is an absolutely asinine practice, and quite frankly my time and effort is better spent elsewhere.

Men are even discouraged from participating based on style of argument. During feminist discussions, men are asked to keep in mind that they shouldn't talk too much, otherwise they will dominate the conversation because they're much more aggressive and outspoken. To me, this is one of the most infuriating things about trying to talk with feminists. I argue how I argue - my normal argument style is aggressive and highly structured. If I'm wrong, I want someone to tell me that I am wrong, and to tell me exactly why. I see absolutely no reason why I should have to hold back because someone else is too mentally weak to go toe to toe with me.

So after all of this, I get to the real problem. Feminism is no friend to men because it limits male participation, or at least male dissent, yet it claims to be the sole solution to a whole host of problems that affect both men and women. Men's interests are simply not being represented in what has become a political powerhouse of a movement that has had profound effect upon law and society. It goes far beyond simple prejudice, or the attitude of individual feminists - it speaks to the very structure and foundations of the movement itself.

el_chief · 2010-12-15T06:33:15+00:00

no one cares about first wave feminism. and no one here cares about the difference between 2nd and 3rd wave, so ya, they're all the same.

2010-12-16T00:28:00+00:00

Well, it is really hard to unload a loaded word. Sometimes you can't control how society as a whole starts to use and perceive a word. Feminist, democrat, conservative, religious right etc are all cases in point. When you use that word it conjures up a whole set of thoughts and emotions. It is far easier to drop the loaded word in favor of a new unloaded word. The thing is that a lot of women who down play false rape accusers and female molesters as important or prevalent also consider themselves feminists. If you use the same word your going to be lumped in the same category. That is a fault of the limited ability of language to describe meanings, not really the fault of mensrights people. In this subreddit, that is what feminist means, and most here consider it a fitting definition. I also consider it a fitting definition.

snoopyzanus · 2010-12-14T08:16:52+00:00

When feminism is criticized, it's common for feminists to say something like: "which type of feminism are you talking about? There are as many types of feminism as there are individual feminists." as if feminists were like cats, unherdable and all wandering off in their own individual directions with no concern for where any of the others are going--but this isn't the case, is it?

Feminism has been so successful precisely because individual feminists and women's groups from different branches of feminism are so good at coming together to lobby on specific issues with specific positions, united under common ideological goals. This is the feminism being criticized.

Then you have the feminist theorists which have the most prominence and influence in academia and among the above-mentioned networked feminist groups. These feminists by-and-large are the very ones whose radical, anti-male views put so many people off feminism. They are not outliers. They are at feminism's very core.

These are the feminists who have had the most influence on society. They are the ones who have shaped feminism's image in the public consciousness. They have earned their bad reputation. They pay lip service to equality, while in practice they lobby for privileges for women--with men demonized to get them, when necessary (and even when not).

Quazz · 2010-12-14T06:30:43+00:00

You're implying that feminism has no prejudice.

AnnArchist · 2010-12-15T20:50:17+00:00

there is one organized feminism.

mean0dean0 · 2010-12-16T01:02:27+00:00

So... you're trying to say that there ISN'T a concerted legal, social, and sexual effort to reduce the rights of men by making them second-class citizens with respect to women... by saying that's not what a textbook definition says?

Grow up and get out of the classroom. Out here in the real world, men are going homeless while women's groups have more money, stability, and job security than ever before, and they're only getting ANGRIER as a result!

2010-12-14T13:59:09+00:00

Oh God, yet another "You MRAs just don't UNDERSTAAAAND Feminism" thread.

Yay.

Title	There is no one Feminism.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	3
Comments	37
Date	December 14, 2010 5:15 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/elg9i/there_is_no_one_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/there-is-no-one-feminism.1045227 https://theredarchive.com/post/1045227

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