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Debate outside the bubble

true-east · 2020-09-21T22:16:15+00:00

I am trying to create a space for people of all different perspectives to talk about gender issues. If people here are interested it talking to feminists,...

true-east

September 21, 2020

18 upvotes

/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates

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Post Information

Title	Debate outside the bubble
Author	true-east
Upvotes	18
Comments	125
Date	September 21, 2020 10:16 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/ixaot6/debate_outside_the_bubble/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/debate-outside-the-bubble.1062781 https://theredarchive.com/post/1062781

Comments

[+][deleted] 5 years ago* (112 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]true-east[S] 8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]PsychoPhilosopher 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]true-east[S] 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]true-east[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Yeah idk they are still modding they just made it private. My suspicion was this was the only way to even out the numbers, you stop new people from coming by themselves and invite feminists. I understand why they do it, but that is also why the sub is flawed, they need feminists for it to work. And feminists are basically allergic to fair moderation. I talked to one yesterday who complains about feminists being 'dog piled', which basically just means a lot of people asking one person questions. And at the same time was happy to call another user a conspiracy theorist for suggesting cancel culture could effect a sub Reddit. So he thinks insults without any sort of greater poinf are fine but too many people asking questions is just unreasonable. They want one side to play nice but honestly couldn't give a fuck about the other. I don't think MRAs should go there as it sends the wrong message that respect only has to go one way in these conversations and that is already far too common to ignore.

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]true-east[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]true-east[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I absolutely agree that debating outside your bubble is important. Yet I'm not convinced that it's really the lack of civil, moderated spaces to do so in that's the limiting factor.

Yeah I agree.

Too many people involved just don't want such a debate. Like, a lot of people on one side I won't name only wants to to debate you unless their tribe sets the rules to run the show by. There are enough counter-examples to implicate any tribes on this one, but I think you can see my point.

Yeah I have already had one feminist say there was no chance they would come to the sub. I don't mind too much. There will be some they just won't be the most vitriolic. But this is really an issue in feminism that can only be worked out if the conversation goes on without them. They honestly believe that they can hold it hostage until they get agreement.

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

But this is really an issue in feminism that can only be worked out if the conversation goes on without them. They honestly believe that they can hold it hostage until they get agreement.

I don't think your explanation covers 100% of this matter, but probably 50%, and you are correct.

It seems this unnamed group wants to strong-arm their political power to make sure than on any big, influential platform with a lot of visibility (which starts to include Reddit on subreddits with, say, ten thousand subscribers) conversation only happens on their terms, or don't happen at all.

You are right that the ways to get past this are either by building spaces which succeed anyway on our own, egalitarian, free speech terms, without caving in to the pressures of tribalism or dogmatism, or removing their political power to censor things they dislike.

Victory will probably need a combination of those two approaches.

[–]true-east[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi21 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]plitox_is_a_bitch 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aaod 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]true-east[S] 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]problem_redditorright-wing guest 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]true-east[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I honestly used to get into it with him just to demonstrate what some users can get away with under that moderation. It's completely unacceptable for somebody who claims to be interested in creating an atmosphere for good faith discussion. At some point I hope that the non-feminists there figure out that it isn't worth putting up with people like that. It really makes you look weak because you demonstrating that you will put up with unfair treatment. How can you claim to be an MRA and defend men against such things if you can't even fight against it for yourself? Honestly it's a little pathetic. (Not to grill the MRAs there too hard, I was one of them, but I was happy to give back to mitoza, hence why I am given ban tiers). And for the feminists, well the fact that none of them ever actually call mitoza out or ask for him to be banned always left me a bit lost. If anybody was acting in bad faith like that and getting priviledged by the mods I'd call it out, doesn't matter what side they are on. He really does add a lot of conflict to all these conversations.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (65 children) | Copy Link

[–]Blauwpetjevalued LWMA contributor 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aaod 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

The feminists don’t go there for a trials at Nuremberg experience

The problem with this is they get that experience of being dogpiled on because literally everywhere else MRA get shit on and or kicked out so you now get to hear the angry screaming voices of a bunch of people who have been shut down, insulted like hell, and had their voices silenced and who were desperate for help but have now turned to anger because they were tossed aside and ignored for so long. Can you blame people for acting this way with how feminists have treated them for so many years? I was once a feminist and now after how I have been treated their pain and suffering fills me with gleeful laughter.

I discuss issues there, but I would never label myself a feminist because I don’t want to spend my time getting yelled at about something Lena Dunham said or did.

That kind of brings up the point of why would you label yourself as that in the first place if the leaders and foot soldiers are doing things you personally disagree with. At what point do you stop using the label? You run into this with normal politics as well where a party shifts and leaves behind other former members who no longer feel it represents them which leads to RINO and DINO republican/democratic in name only. At what point does someone accept it is something that can no longer be defended?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aaod 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You presented feminists needing moderation in their favor as some type of weakness, now you say they do get dog piled on. Isn’t moderating dog piling and hostility in the favor of an atmosphere of debate rather than in favor to feminists?

It depends on how it is done what happened with femradebates is the rules were written so you had to use weasel words almost like a lawyer to argue anything especially if you were a MRA, but that doesn't stop hostility or dogpiling behavior. It is hard to have a debate when you can't actually speak the truth because it is against the rules or talk about your own experiences/perceptions. You also had more selective enforcement against MRAs a lot of which was undeserved.

I don't know how you would even address those behaviors because the hostility and anger comes from outside sources and bad previous experiences with feminists and the dog piling is because their is so few feminists showing up turning it into a chicken and the egg problem. Feminists don't show up because they don't want to deal with this stuff (can't blame em especially since because they are in control/have the power right now have nothing to gain from it), but on the other hand one of the primary reasons it happens is because they refuse to show up to that place or in other places and situations treat MRAs like shit.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aaod 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You can’t generalize on the sub is the thing.

Which makes debate impossible because that is how people normally speak/argue and even when we bring up why we feel that way because of experiences and studies/facts it is still not acceptable. A couple of us here are ex posters from there who tried our best to use the silly language that is expected and still wound up banned because it is impossible to speak that way and still have a debate/multiple debates especially long term. I was a founding member of that subreddit and the only members I know of from that that are not banned/still able to post one is a mod and the other rarely posts.

I can understand banning someone who is ranting about how all women are trash that isn't debate that is just stupid trash talking and hostility, but banning someone for saying women are X because here are some studies showing X is true is far different.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aaod 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Nion_zaNari 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I don’t use the label where people have twisted it into what it means to them rather than what it means to me.

To continue my comment above, that has proven to be another enormous obstacle in talking to feminists.

(and no, I don't mean (a), the fact that most feminists seem to want the social power to bar you from saying anything objectionable instead of debating. Neither do I mean (b), the way the women's movement worked the public opinion for decades to recast the most common criticisms against it either as backwards myths or obvious signs of the critic lack of education / moral derangement. Nor do I mean (c), the way aggressive or traumatized feminists are usually treated with reverence, special care and deference by the public – their injuries are an obvious sign of their need to be heard, but if you are an angry or hurt man, many would very soon use this to dismiss, denigrate or personally insult you. You, you likely failed-to-launch, sexually unsuccessful crybaby – and most often those who say this are feminists)

What I mean is, how when I discuss feminism, I want to talk about real-world actions of flesh-and-blood people, their history, the motivations behind them, and then their ramifications first and foremost. The influence on society of the institutional and political parts of feminism. Some of them were good bad, some bad. Let's talk about it, percentages of good and bad varying depending on your stances.

However, when I talk to a feminist, their most usual response amounts to: "Never mind any of that historic baloney! It's not interesting! The real feminism is that noble idea in my heart! This holy spirit that lives behind the altar of the temple where I worship! Never mind any unintended consequences of my beautiful intentions, they are not holy, so let's never mention it again." It is as if a feminist who wants to talk to you literally wants me to do comparative theology together.

And I have never seen this happen to the same extent when discussing religion, politics, or literally anything else – people usually accept that, for example, their Christianity means something unspeakably beautiful to them, but recognize that a non-believer won't care about the beauty of their belief when discussing the Catholic paedophile sex abuse scandal. So it looks like this tendency to give feminists a pass might just maybe be related to gender, which your sisters seem to have very successfully weaponized and exploited for political gain.

Now, I do apologize for the rant. But while you definitely aren't the worst offender, you don't seem very aware of these tendencies when wording these criticisms. The way "Adolf" is never again going to be just a name, feminism is never going to be just "the belief in gender equality". You bring something like this into conversation – it's on you to deal with the baggage that comes with it. If you strip away the profeminist propaganda in the media, I don't see why would anyone, anywhere think differently.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes, this is why I don't call myself a feminist on Reddit.

That's the thing, thought. You don't call yourself a feminist on Reddit, because it would inconvenience you. However, despite all of the above mentioned ugliness and evil behavior, the implication is that you are still a feminist outside of Reddit...

I have no love for liberal feminism...

Is that suppose to be a moment where you tell me that you are a "liberationist" and I turn to embrace the radical feminism due to its refreshing honestly?

EDIT:

And, do Methodists usually have to answer for something the Pope said?

(1) Do Methodists participate in an inter-faith political alliance of the faithful with the Pope? (2) Do Methodists rally to defend the Pope when he gets flak from New Atheists? (3) Do Methodists work hard to convince the non-believers to vote in ways that would be conductive to the Pope's goals, and they pretend there's no connection between Methodists and Catholics when challenged?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Is that suppose to be a moment where you tell me that you are a "liberationist" and I turn to embrace the radical feminism due to its refreshing honestly?

Might be good for a laugh, if I had any idea what the fuck you were talking about.

However, despite all of the above mentioned ugliness and evil behavior, the implication is that you are still a feminist outside of Reddit...

Yeah, its an ""inconvenience"" to be seen as evil and ugly through guilt by association.

the implication is that you are still a feminist outside of Reddit...

Ok.

Dude, didn't I tell you I'm unsure of the label because being for the liberation of women (yadda, yadda) doesn't necessarily mean I'm a feminist, have to call myself a feminist, or tell anyone else I'm a feminist. As far as your definition, I'm not a feminist.

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]goldenjuniperleft-wing male advocate 9 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LacklustreFriend 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

I kind of expect that people coming to a debate sub familiarize themselves with the subject matter. For instance, a feminist isn’t a radical feminist because she said something you think is crazy or extreme. And there’s no use holding a radical feminist to account because you heard a lib fem say feminism is for men too.

I’d rather it be handled like I handle mras. An mra can be anything from the left of me on abolishing gender to someone who thinks feminism’s mistake was interfering with traditional gender roles. Each one is a person and an mra. I waste my time if I hold them accountable for things they don’t believe.

I think feminism is the liberation of females from coercion and control related to their reproductive roles. If you think a feminist is someone who agrees with all of Julie Bindel’s columns, then we don’t have a meeting of the minds.

In addition, I feel that the problems of men and women are intertwined so it’s never possible to talk about only one at a time. Another reason I’m not sure I want the label.

[–]LacklustreFriend 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminists don't think that being female means a woman has to do or be anything.

It's one of those cases where you successfully produced a slogan that pulls at heartstrings instead of answering the damn question. This is an insanely lenient interpretation of feminist beliefs, and even it doesn't hold. We are all expected to do something based on who we are. Seeking to reduce this burden sounds noble on paper, but it has very little to do with the history of the feminist movement, as it appears to nonfeminists.

That's different than acknowledging biological differences, of which feminists are well aware...

Really? So they are very well aware of it when the feminist university textbooks on masculinity include only the social constructionist perspective?

They are well aware of it when they say that how more women weren't Nobel laureates is exclusively explainable by discrimination, and throw the variability hypothesis out of the window?

They are well aware of it when the wage gap arguments completely ignores the well-known differences in occupational choice, and the interest in people vs interest in things gender gap?

(While the rest of the inconvenient scientific evidence that they haven't gotten their grubby ideological paws on yet is fought to be declared a thought-crime, which seems to be happening in sexology and several other disciplines right now.)

An average feminist is blank slatist when it favors their side of the argument, and gender essentialist when it hurtz menz feelz and produces manz tearz. Truth doesn't factor into it, at any step of the way.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi22 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What are you expected to do because you have a penis that isn't a social convention?

Oh, so male disposability and the expectation to be okay with a myriad ways in which my life is valued less is suddenly a-okay because it's a mere "social convention"?

Look who suddenly turned a gender traditionalist (but for men only) after getting a little upset!

I think socialization happens from our earliest moments so what is our biological destiny and what is decided for us is a process of understanding.

Yeah, the studies showing a gender difference in the nervous systems response of infants must all be a result of socialization.

I'm really only interested in how our reproductive roles, and the gender norms associated with them, can be overcome.

At least you are honest that you don't care about men.

[–]CoffeehasSentience 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

It’s not so much that. Feminists can stand on their own two feet. It’s that feminists have to spend too much time disavowing every thing any feminist has ever done.

I am always glad to see you here, but I'm afraid this view just doesn't hold water. When you talk to feminists, there often appears to be some sort of magic in play, making it so that the positive parts of feminism are defined in a way that's universal and generalizeable to the whole movement, but whatever any given negative is, it must be directed at the offending feminist personally, and is rarely, if ever, acknowledged to be a part of the general tendency. (I think the paper on the gender bias in moral typecasting that was recently a pinned thread on MR might have the answer to this.) Yet it's notorious that when the radicals, or the mythical "few bad feminists" are attacked, the good ones close ranks and defend them. Go figure.

You may self-label as you please, but you are probably still a part of the movement whose current political positioning greatly benefits from some very questionable tactics used in the recent past, by people who are still around.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

I think somehow feminists want any man to be a stand in for what makes them angry about patriarchy.

FTFY

It is funny how you don't see the parallels.

Then further, a widespread argument about how all men are responsible for and benefit from the system of violence and intimidation committed by some of us, and therefore, it's our moral duty to hold our predatory brothers responsible for their bad behavior.

But hey, for you – methodological individualism all the way down. You are only responsible for your own unidentified strand of feminism.

...feminists get dog piled on FeMRADebates, because there's nowhere else it can happen...

The reason it could only happen on FeMRADebates was that it was one of the few subs that had good rules for debate, even if they weren't consistently enforced. If you debate a feminist outside of that sub, they go cry to the moderators, cash in their preferential treatment talons, and likely get you banned.

EDIT: Edited for clarity.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi2left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Oh wait, you can't.

You are missing the point. My previous comment was annoying, so it's understandable, and I sympathize.

But I want you to get it before we move on, so I'll stress it again: when it comes to discussion of gender, it's all collectivist thinking, all the time, with fancy theory to support it... Yet when a feminist comes here to cry about being dog-piled, then suddenly old school is back in fashion, and everyone must be treated as an individual.

I would say it's more like men and women together are affected by the violence some men do against women.

What about the violence some women do against men, surely it's not irrelevant?

I would say the destruction of trust between men and women does more harm than it does good. But, I would be interested in hearing out what someone thought were the benefits.

I was never a MGTOW, or an incel, so you'd have to ask someone else.

And in my view (which is close to this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/308350.Ceasefire_), it is more trust between feminist women and men, and between profeminist men and men that was destroyed. The rest of us are affected to a much lesser extent.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]mewacketergi21 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We could easily live in a universe that came to different conclusions.

Yeah! You are right, we could be easily living in a universe where during the ~12,000 years of primate civilization the dominant cultures evolved to send many of their females to die in wars and then exploited them in dangerous low-skilled occupations, and there didn't have to be any gender difference in variability of traits. And these societies also replenished their population by budding. Or I don't know, maybe their economic system was different, because they all photosynthesized, and agricultural civilization wasn't necessary to invent. Well, I'm sure there's something! And then the unfortunate trend of female disposability was ended when their males taught themselves how to give birth.

Your radfem persona is an adorable tiny-teensy thing, and its attempts to be edgy are cute, but it's not making a lot of sense. Perhaps it should consider picking up a book by Steven Pinker. There was blank-something in the name. Roy F. Baumeister's Is There Anything Good About Men also come to mind. But hey, it's probably safer to ignore both of these awful white cishetero males, they aren't woke and only want to keep you oppressed.

P.S. My real mistake was thinking that you are someone whose empathy and compassion could be reached, while you would be right at home modding r/AskFeminists.

[–][deleted]1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]mewacketergi21 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]true-east[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This is part of the reason why I framed the sub how I did. I wanted to take the emphasis away from feminism and how you feel about feminists and make it about the issues. I don't plan to have any kind of labelling system for beliefs and purposely made the title and description to focus on the subjects at hand rather than the groups who often talk about those subjects.

I also hope that not being an MRA and disagreeing with a lot of MRA beliefs myself I can hope to draw out some more nuance from the non-feminisfs side and actually get us talking more ourselves. Instead of just being focused on disagreeing with feminists and not having the difficult discussions of what non-feminisfs beleifs and values we actually hold. It is so easy to be oppositional and it makes it so much easier to feel like you have cultural momentum. I want to move the non-feminist side away from that because it is an unproductive and reactionary mindset. Not that I don't think feminism as a movement shouldn't have major criticisms leveled at it. But I think we must do so in the process of constructing alternatives, not just by trying to point out internal contradictions inside the movement itself.

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[–]true-east[S] 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Blauwpetjevalued LWMA contributor 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I had the experience with the Facebook page 'Feminists and Antifeminists'. I must say, the admin was very bad - worse, she did nothing, while intervening often was badly needed. But the main problem remained that the anti's were running rings around the feminists, who didn't have any answers to most questions, were badly informed, apparently were so astonished about what was really going on that they preferred to deny and stay away. Yes, in the beginning there was some ugly shitposting by MGTOW-like types, I personally called them and the admin to order then. After that, the antis came up with the most informative, neutral, interesting and moderate info, like CH Sommers or Prim Reaper, or even articles from Psychology Today etc., but all that remained of the feminists were two women just repeating themselves. So I wish you good luck and hope I'm wrong, but I am not optimistic about the project.

[–]true-east[S] 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Long-Chair-7825left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]xenodroid80 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Neveah_Hope_Dreams 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]true-east[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Neveah_Hope_Dreams 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Xemnas81 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Man I've been trying to do this for years with limited success. Rules of conduct aren't enough to foster it. The only way to earn the respect of feminists is for more emphasis on 'activism' in the MRM. Same with the average citizen's perception of it. And they will always hold feminists to a lower standard of agency (that is, they don't have to do anything except not go out of their way to be terrible human beings to be seen as activists) because ironically *most* feminists are taking a conservative (defensive) position of trying to hold onto the gender status quo. Additionally, since most anti discrimination training for most jobs includes anti sexism against women, and pretty much anything in e.g. the care and education sectors involves this training, people in these positions tend to already be seen as 'activists'.

What new stuff do you plan to bring to the table?

edit: I realise this isn't you who posted it, I'm never sure what people in civil rights movements seek to achieve when starting with "equality is impossible and undesirable, CMV." It's the biggest self-own considering how many MRAs in practice, are coming to the community from a place of social alienation first and foremost, not legal disenfranchisement (which is of course commendable to protest too.)

[–]true-east[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I respect activism I just don't believe in equality. Doesn't mean I don't believe in rights. I think mistaking these two things is a major flaw in narrative actually. I think at best it is understood to be universal rights, but even those are conditional and will be taken away if you break the law. Part of the reason I want us to reject 'equality' isn't because I disagree with what I'd say most people want, which I would say would be fair assesment of themselves and others. But because it is too easily confused for a presumption of equal ability if all societal barriers are removed. And that is what I don't believe it.

And yeah I'm not really trying to start a movement. I don't really think I have all the solutions to the world's problems or something. I just like to improve my understand of the world and other people's perspectives.