How do I avoid teaching my kids RedPill?

NewStartup2021 · 2021-09-14T16:19:14+00:00

I've been following TRP for a few years now. I understand it's a toxic way to approach the world. However, it's gotten me results and has...

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That "article" is heavy on prose, light on facts...cites a single study about "how satisfied are people with the height of their partner" which like...

Who the fuck even cares?
How did they isolate the study from arbitrary societal norms/expectations/toxic masculinity? (hint: they didn't)

It also cites Jordan Peterson as a source at one point, which is another nail in the "this article is just thinly veiled RP propaganda" coffin.

It has a heading of:

Women’s preference for dominant men

which it then attempts to "prove" by citing JP's bullshit, and saying this:

Besides the preference for height, women also tend to show a preference for indicators of dominance in men, such as physical strength and masculine facial features.

They're implying that women show a preference for dominance. What that study showed is that women show a preference for physical strength and masculine facial features. That's not even in the same logical universe as "women show a preference for dominant, controlling men", much less your supposition that women "want to be dominated".

This suggests that it is adaptive, in evolutionary terms, for women to be attracted to such men and to choose them as partners.

Yeah, that was the norm when we as humans had to worry about being eaten by lions in the jungle...which hasn't been a genuine concern for most human beings for literally centuries.

Research supporting this argument has found that women with a higher fear of crime are more likely to prefer physically formidable and dominant males. In addition, women who score lower on dominance show a stronger preference for taller men.

Three things:

I'd love for them to redo this study with only sexual assault and domestic violence survivor women and see if those results still pan out. Doubt it.
They are pretty vague on how much of the fear of crime is fear that they will be the victim of a man, so they therefore feel the need for a bigger, stronger man than the man who might attack her. (edit: in fairness, the article does actually address this in its conclusion...where it also decimates the argument that women prefer dominant men/to be dominated)
"In addition, women who score lower on dominance show a stronger preference for taller men." This is basically saying "submissive women prefer physically imposing men"...which is no different than the genderless statement "submissive HUMANS prefer physically imposing partners". Like...cmon. You MUST'VE seen all the people fawning over Lady Dimitrescu. Saying that specifically submissive women prefer physically imposing men isn't news...but it does prove that not all women are submissive or prefer dominant men/partners.

Unfortunately, the preference for larger and more dominant men comes with a cost. Such men, while they might protect their partners from other men, also present the risk of turning their aggression onto their partners.

Gotta love how this article attempts to blame women for the fact that roided/createne'd out dudebros assault their partners...

And I'm sure you just ignored this part?

By choosing larger and more dominant men, women potentially become more vulnerable to physical and sexual domination by their partner. Crime statistics show that the majority of intimate partner murder victims are female.

Again, gotta love how they're blaming women for this even though women are the victims here.

I could pick apart the whole article line by line, but I'll leave it here, because even the article itself here disproves your argument: (again, emphasis mine)

So the fact that women prefer male partners who can – and often do – dominate them does not mean that women want to be dominated. The genetic payoff over evolutionary time for producing offspring with such men has simply been greater than any genetic costs of being dominated by them. Women risk aggression from their partners as part of a strategy to counteract the threat of violence from other men.

And this is all without even discussing the fact that this entire article, and all the "sources" it used, effectively assume that only straight women exist...which...no...not even close.

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Most women usually want someone who is confident but not „dominant“, at least not so dominant that it becomes controlling. Aka basically just a confident dude that views them as equals. Taking control of what? My mom is a house wife and so is my sister currently, they still have about as much control as their husbands. It’s all words, most women just want to be seen as equals. Yes women may want a man that is stronger than them, Bc its attractive but not a man that wants to dictate what to do.

I personally am weird out by men feeling less manly just Bc I earn more or want to have a say in. A good portion of women do earn more (I think either in this thread or in the „bluepill“ someone posted research, sourced debunking the myth that most women are hypergamous)

I have no issue letting my boyfriend take control of things, he is better at some things so it makes sense he is in control of certain things (Garden work for example, he basically runs our garden Bc he puts the most work in it) but we always talk and he always asks my opinion, like any normal Partner does….

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His stuff is like rp lite in terms of lessons, but he doesn't disrespect women

Lol, wut? You cannot separate TRP from misogyny and disrespecting women, it is a core tenet of the ideology.

while also tells you not to be a nice guy,

So he's RP, flat out.

he openly dislikes the RP community,

And yet tells them exactly what they want to hear. The cognitive dissonance is palpable.

and he actually has women on his podcasts where they have friendly discussions.

Oh wow. He deigns to allow women on his show? And he's friendly towards his guests? Wow, what an incredible man and role model!

/s

Some of his main teachings are more indifference makes the difference, love in such a way the other person feels free, and don't be needy/have your own life.

This stuff is pretty decent advice. Shame it has to be wrapped in a bunch of toxic shit.

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Relax. It's a reference. The reality is that billions of people follow these religions and jeudo-christian values have molded the western world. It is what is.

Being an emotionally stable man with vision and strength isn't easy for a lot of men which one could argue is part of why these religions formed in the first place. You speak as if living a life of virtue is something a person is born with. We are wild animals at heart living in a modern world. Without some form of ideology we would not have any focus and would succumb to our worst instincts

I'm no follower of religion but I see the value that it brings to many societies. Is there bad that comes with it? Obviously but that is what you get when you have flawed creatures operating in any space.

Some people follow out of fear while others do out of belief. Your perspective is so black and white.

[–]juliuspepperwoodchi 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Relax. It's a reference. The reality is that billions of people follow these religions and jeudo-christian values have molded the western world. It is what is.

Being an emotionally stable man with vision and strength isn't easy for a lot of men which one could argue is part of why these religions formed in the first place.

Lol, as if TRP in any way promotes or supports men being emotionally stable or strong. Shit, organized Abrahamic religions do a better job of that...and they're TERRIBLE at it.

You speak as if living a life of virtue is something a person is born with. We are wild animals at heart living in a modern world. Without some form of ideology we would not have any focus and would succumb to our worst instincts

And TRP is among the worst "ideologies" you could choose. Not least of which because it regularly contradicts itself.

I'm no follower of religion but I see the value that it brings to many societies. Is there bad that comes with it? Obviously but that is what you get when you have flawed creatures operating in any space.

Nice cop out.

Some people follow out of fear while others do out of belief. Your perspective is so black and white.

Ah yes, as opposed to TRP which is a bastion of subtlety and nuance, right?

C'mon dude. Have SOME integrity.

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take control means to lead. Women definitely want a man who knows what he wants, can be stoic when necessary, and accomplish what he wants and whatever the family needs.

[Citation needed]

Lets not pretend that across cultures, that this is not what is expected of any man in the context of society and his family.

Let's also not pretend that societal norms are based on what women want. Like, do you even hear yourself and how stupid that sounds?

trp isnt the primary conveyor of this but rather all of the juedo-chrisitan religions and of course islam. According to these systems, the man is the head of the household and women are required to submit to his vision of the family. the man submits to the women also but the roles are obviously different

That's not even true of all Abrahamic religions (the term you were looking for that covers Judeo-Christian AND Islamic faiths....since they all stem from Abraham), and not just the modern interpretations of them.

Hebrew society, in many regions, was, and still is, DEEPLY matriarchal.

Congratulations bro, you played yourself.

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[–]juliuspepperwoodchi 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's an obvious generalization. You're playing dumb like you don't know what take control means.

No I'm not. If you're going to make a claim, define the terms you're using. That's basic science.

So go on, define it.

There has never been any evidence of any matriarchal society to have ever existed. Go look at the wiki page. Nobody has ever discovered a matriarchal system. It's a myth.

Oh, how cute, you've never heard of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Also, from your precious "wiki page":

Most anthropologists hold that there are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal

But hey, I'm sure you just made a genuine mistake in omitting the VERY key word in that sentence of "unambiguous".

Nope, you weren't being intentionally dishonest or disingenuous at all in omitting that key word, that's for sure!

/s

You're playing yourself with your abysmal ignorance

Watching you dunk on yourself with a shit eating grin as if you just won something is endlessly entertaining, not gonna lie.

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TRP helped me reframe the situation and move on.

Do you have any specific examples you can recall?

Without TRP, I would’ve taken it more personally and had trouble attracting new partners.

Maybe TRP helped you in that way...but there are PLENTY of other ways you could've dealt with those feelings, TRP wasn't the only solution.

I’m not exactly sure what the opposite of TRP looks like. What is a healthy way of viewing relationships or women?

Intersectional feminism/Men's Liberation.

Almost all women agree that they want a man that can take control.

This is patently false, and the most concerning thing you've said so far.

I just don’t know where reality starts meeting fantasy and what I should pass on to my kids.

This might be a good place to start:

https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/2017/02/reddit-the-red-pill-interview-how-misogyny-spreads-online

As far as which aspects of TRP you should pass onto your kids...none. Not one bit of it.

[–]NewStartup2021[S] -5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

TRP teaches men to always keep your options open. When my girlfriend dumped me, I was comforted by the idea that there where many women out there. It also helped me understand why she dumped me and how not to make the same mistakes in future relationships (being needy, over invested etc).
I do feel like TRP gives me an advantage in seduction. Especially if you aren’t physically gifted. Unless you look like Brad Pitt, being shy and timid aren’t going to get you very far in the dating scene.
I don’t know what intersectional feminism or men’s liberation looks like in practice.
I don’t think it’s patently false. I’ve talked to a lot of women. None of them have said that they want a weak, submissive man. Send a 5’1 man and a 6’2 man to a bar and see which one fares better with the ladies.

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TRP teaches men to always keep your options open. When my girlfriend dumped me, I was comforted by the idea that there where many women out there.

And that's fine, but again, that "advice" is not special or unique to TRP.

It also helped me understand why she dumped me and how not to make the same mistakes in future relationships (being needy, over invested etc).

Please elaborate. What do you mean by "over invested"?

I do feel like TRP gives me an advantage in seduction.

I mean... seduction is kinda fucking gross. It's basically manipulative marketing but for sex. The whole goal is to take someone who initially DOES NOT want to fuck you and convince/coerce them to fuck you, by basically any means necessary. Why is that something you want to be good at?

Especially if you aren’t physically gifted. Unless you look like Brad Pitt, being shy and timid aren’t going to get you very far in the dating scene.

I'm as shy and timid as they come, yet I'm polyamorous, married, and have had many partners without ever needing to coerce or seduce anyone. Again, you've fallen for the fallacy that TRP is the ONLY way to be successful in dating when it isn't.

I don’t know what intersectional feminism or men’s liberation looks like in practice.

Sounds like you know what your homework is then. r/MensLib is a great place to start for that.

I don’t think it’s patently false.

Except it is. Factually. You can choose to ignore a fact, as you are here, but you can't disagree with it. Facts are facts, they aren't up for debate.

I’ve talked to a lot of women.

Your anecdotal evidence doesn't replace scientific studies and data of FAR larger sample sizes. Sorry.

None of them have said that they want a weak, submissive man.

This is proof of your selection bias. I know MANY women who enjoy/prefer being the dominant one in bed/relationships.
"Women want a man who seizes control" is not the same as "women don't prefer weak, submissive men"
Being willing to be submissive and vulnerable is not the same as being weak.

Send a 5’1 man and a 6’2 man to a bar and see which one fares better with the ladies.

More nonsense. Fucking layers of nonsense in fact. I've known 7' tall dudes who were the most demure, submissive men in ANY room. I've also known five foot tall dudes who are jacked as fuck and NO ONE would call them weak or submissive.

You're buying into a metric fuckton of fallacies...and then when you're told they're not true you just keep insisting they are.

Do you want advice as to how to not red pill your kids...or do you actually want validation that TRP is fine/good/valid? Seems like the latter.

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I don’t think I would consider seduction gross. You’re not convincing them to do anything that they don’t want to.

Yeah, you are. If they wanted to do it initially, you wouldn't have to seduce them.

C'mon man, I ask again: do you want to hear what's wrong with RP and how to not spread it to your kids, or do you want validation that RP is actually fine?

You’re just showcasing your potential as a partner. No different than a salesman presenting a product.

This is exactly my point. Love/sex isnt a product to be marketed to prospective buyers. Not to mention the fact that MANY salesmen are seen as sleazy and immoral because they'll do and say whatever they have to to make the sale. Doing or saying whatever you have to do to get someone to sleep with you, whether you're being honest or coercive, is fucking gross.

Nothing inherently dishonest or slimy.

Could not disagree more.

Can you link the study that says women don’t prefer dominant man? The only studies I’ve found have confirmed the opposite. I would guess 80-90% do. This is the basis of TRP.

Can you share the studies? I would LOVE to know how they isolated the subjects of their study from the patriarchal and misogynist conditioning of our modern society.

Every single switch or submissive woman I know in the kink community has grappled with the dilemma of "do I like being tied up and spanked and having my hair pulled because I like it, or because I was raised in a misogynist and patriarchal society which conditioned me to be a sex object of mens' desire?" Not one of them has a concrete answer, and they've all been considering that question for at least a decade.

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All animals have a courtship process. Seduction is natural.

Again, no. Courtship and seduction are NOT the same thing.

NO woman is going to walk up to you and just start making out.

Didn't suggest she would, but nice strawman you've got there.

They want to make sure you’re a suitable partner that isn’t dangerous. This is literally seduction.

It literally isn't.

se·duce

/səˈd(y)o͞os/

verb

entice (someone) into sexual activity.
attract (someone) to a belief or into a course of action that is inadvisable or foolhardy. (emphasis mine)
attract powerfully.

No mention of courtship at all...because they aren't remotely the same.

Also, I don’t understand why it matter whether they were conditioned or not? The end result is still the same.

You...you can't be serious. This is no different than grooming. If a person grooms a child into a sexual relationship and the only reason that child thinks that they enjoy it is because they were taught and groomed to do you think that's fine? It's the SAME THING.

More women are turned on by being sexually dominated than being sexually dominant.

You can't even stick to a consistent argument. This is now the third tweak/reframing you've done on your original argument. Amazingly, they're all false.

The studies prove it.

Again, waiting on those studies including their methodology. Plural by the way. Studies. Not one singular study. Many. You said there are many, I want to see them and how they adjusted for biases and societal conditioning.

You don’t believe in biological differences between men and women? Completely equal?

Where the fuck did that come from? Completely out of right field, that's where. Where did I say I don't believe in biological differences across sexes? Hint: I didn't.

I still haven't seen even the tiniest whiff of you wanting anything out of this thread other than validation of your RP beliefs.

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The study you keep posting shows that women historically preferred men who appeared dominant, when it came to physical size and height. The study didn't look at whether these men actually were dominant when it came to personality, behavior, or romantic interaction.

Just one interpretation: Someone pointed this out earlier in the article, that the qualities we think mean "dominance" could have meant "protection/survival" for early humans. This would mean that the women were motivated by who had skills to be the best hunter/gatherer/warrior back then before civilization was developed. Our modern society looks totally different, we have laws and civil rights, but more technology and healthcare. We face a wider range of threats in the modern era, so the solutions women are attracted to are more varied.

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That's an easy one. Make sure that you teach your boys that love is never guaranteed, true love is rarely real, and that no one is entitled to love and affection. none of that: "you just haven't found the right person yet" or "the one is waiting out there for you".

Stuff like this makes kids feel like they are special. Of course all of this sounds mean but take my word for it it's out of good faith.

As a boy I used to think all I had to do was be nice and I'd get what I want. That's not how the world works.

Treat your kids like adults and they'll act mature. Hold them accountable and don't bail them out. Let them learn from their own mistakes.

Also make sure to tell them that life isn't always cause and effect. Intellectuals look for answers when having dating troubles. The problem is that you can't scientifically test hypothesis with romance. You can't have a controlled experiment. It's unpredictable and there are very little answers.

That's all I wish I learned when I was younger

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Preventing people from getting hurt? TRP hurts people as much as it promises to "save" them. It tells people that real intimicy doesn't even exists. Gives people trust issues by teaching you that you're at constant risk of being cheated on. Puts you in rollers coaster relationships because "Dread game". And all of these "prevented me from getting hurt" is also questionable because plenty of suspicion it brings on is sometimes in your head, only.

As a matter of fact, more often than not, the only thing TRP accomplishes is to convice people that we live on some sort of sexual dystopia and then teach you TRP concepts to deal with this dystopia. Except that this said dystopia is a mere made up problem they conviced you you had. It's the oldest trick in the conmen book: Convince people they have a problem and sell them the solution to this said "problem".

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Title	How do I avoid teaching my kids RedPill?
Author	NewStartup2021
Upvotes	1
Comments	102
Date	September 14, 2021 4:19 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/po615b/how_do_i_avoid_teaching_my_kids_redpill/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/how-do-i-avoid-teaching-my-kids-redpill.1070461 https://theredarchive.com/post/1070461

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