What does the MRM get wrong?

iainmf · 2022-05-30T01:58:41+00:00

That's a hard question to answer, because there is no real MRM and there is not a body of theory/ideology, like feminism. The common thing about the MRM is they think men's rights should be protected. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Sure, there are people in the MRM who think X and I think Y, so one of us is wrong.

TheSnesLord · 2022-05-30T10:55:24+00:00

What does the MRM get wrong?

By thinking that the "polite nice guy" approach works. Decades of failure to make any significant impact/change in society, education, politics and law proves this.

If you want change you need to be loud, aggressive and be a nuisance. That's the only way you get the above sectors to listen to you. You have to make make them "fear" you a bit. Otherwise, they'll just laugh you off and throw your concerns straight into the bin.

And don't give me this moral-clowning horse s**t of "don't stoop to the feminists level", even if the MRM gets aggressive, they would be using reason, facts and logic to further their ideas so it's not "stooping to their level".

Take a leaf out of the recent Anti-Feminist Men's Groups in South Korea. Them being loud, aggressive and nuisances has made companies and businesses change their ways and has made politicians listen to them. Because of this, they have elected an Anti-Feminist as their next president.

63daddy · 2022-05-30T02:08:26+00:00

I think the MRM lacks focus. It’s much smaller and has less influence than feminism. It needs to pick its battles wisely. In my opinion it should be focusing on a few issues that are most important and winnable. It really shouldn’t be spending time and resource on issues it’s unlikely to make progress on; things most people will agree are discriminatory. Getting states to adopt a more equal presumption of joint custody is something they’ve done well and should focus more on for example.

I think the MRM needs to up its information game. Feminists are incredible propaganda masters. They mostly control the narrative. Getting people to understand the problem is the first step in making change. Imagine for example if most parents truly understood how strongly education is biased against their sons. The MRM wouldn’t need to fight for education reform, parents would be leading the charge. Related, they need to better vet what they do release. I’ve seen feminists tear some of Elam’s articles to shreds. Granted they are misrepresenting his points, but had his articles been better vetted, it would be harder for them to do so.

Practical-Rip6471 · 2022-05-30T04:13:38+00:00

Thinking the rest of society gives a fuck about our problems and pain. Stop giving a fuck about theirs, see how they like it. Victim point only work because of sympathy for the victim, which in our society is orders of magnitude being manipulated for political ends. Pull the rug out from the oppression Olympics, don't hate, but don't care or sympathise. Don't be the saviour, the safety net or the clean up man!

imextremelymoderate · 2022-05-30T10:23:29+00:00

Conversely, I believe feminism's weakness is its lack of self-awareness and inability to recognize its mistakes and shortcomings

Brandwein · 2022-05-30T10:59:15+00:00

Mensrights adovates are too afraid to step on some toes. They need to be more aggressive with counterculture, the "our way or the highway" style. Meanwhile other movements are thriving with much more radical cadence while 'we' are busy to appease. Can't be afraid to play dirty sometimes either.

tenchineuro · 2022-05-30T05:16:58+00:00

A finely crafted 'concern troll'.

The fundamental blocker for the MRM is that it deals with men's issues, that's not allowed, that's it 100%.

g1455ofwater · 2022-05-30T20:43:49+00:00

Too nice to people who criticize it. Most people attacking Men's Rights don't have genuine concern for men they're just trying to degrade a movement they don't like.

vasjpan02 · 2022-05-30T12:40:48+00:00

It is hypocrisy when women claim to be able to be firemen, soldiers and construction workers but still protected. Also our society values quiet over justice: you are expected to get along even if you are wronged. It used to be provocation was defense for assault - Harry Truman threatened to punch the guy who disliked his daughter's piano playing

StanleyMilgramsGhost · 2022-05-30T18:23:47+00:00

Not setting its own agenda and being reactionary is the biggest problem. There are other issues but this one is the worst strategic problem.

DavidByron2 · 2022-05-30T03:44:30+00:00

Well I think GWW's Libertarian approach to explaining male disposability historically is wrong.

Basically this theory explains male disposability in terms of a pseudo-evolutionary approach applied to societies, reasoning that societies that happened to treat and protect women better than men were more "fit" in the evolutionary sense, and therefore came to dominate numerically over hypothetical societies that happened to favour men thousands of years ago. Why does more women help? Because women were needed for child bearing says this theory, and higher population means a more "fit" society.

However I don't think societies particularly benefit from a higher child birth rate because population is usually limited by food supply, not the number of fertile women. The population is usually set to the maximum supportable by the food supply except just after big wars (which you'd be more likely to lose if your society emphasized fewer men surely?) or disease. After these disasters a society with more women might regain max population more quickly... but only a little faster which seems like a poor advantage compared to having more men to produce more food in the first place. In addition this argument would work about the same for humanity as a whole but whereas the proportion of male to female births does somewhat vary among mammalian species for humans nature favours males over females by about 51:49 is it?

I support a Socialist theory which explains male disposability coming about as a consequence of class warfare.

In the first place some other social mammals treat males worse than females because their social group consists of one "alpha" male who gets to reproduce and who chases away or dominates all the other males. For example in a lion's pride there's one male lion who chases away the adolescent male lions, who mostly die as a result, whereas all the young female lions are cared for by the pride. So male disposability starts with social mammals behaviour in cases where there is polygamy (which of course is a system that favour females over males contra feminist bullshit). You can see this directly happening in human societies where polygamy is the norm - like the Mormons. They have to expel the excess young poor males so the rich males can have multiple wives.

But humans are not generally polygamous so the reason for most societies employing male disposability is slightly different. In both cases though, the cause is that the males in charge ("elites" or "patriarchy") have reason to fear a revolution by younger males trying to replace them. Whether the young males are envious of their access to women or their access to other riches and resources (not that there's much difference since they're both associated) the older more powerful males have reason to be afraid that they will be replaced by other men ("revolution"). Therefore the elite males take action to make sure these poorer men are dealt with in such a way that they are either killed or are pitted against each other. That is, class warfare explains male disposability. In a capitalist society (or another society based on class) male disposability is inevitable. The rich will always seek to dominate and control the poor. Since women don't revolt the way men do, there's little need to control them (which is why historically prisons were and remain almost entirely full of men). We basically haven't come much further than the old male adult lion chasing away the young male lions.

imextremelymoderate · 2022-05-30T10:21:01+00:00

I think the MRM undervalues the role women play in undermining feminism and giving a voice to the plight of men.

Understandably men have recently become very distrustful of women, but it has become an irrational fear that has isolated men and impeded the progress of men's rights

Luchadorgreen · 2022-05-30T04:27:14+00:00

I don't know if it's the MRM in general, but this sub is very negative; there is a lot of bitterness here, and while understand it, it's extremely disempowering.

It's quite obvious that people who are positive are more motivated and feel empowered to make a change. I think sulking in rage bait and depressing news, as well as lashing out at tribal enemies is not the right way to go. It's okay to vent a bit, but I think it's far more productive to see every ideological opponent as a future ally. Rather than lashing out with divisive language, a better tactic would be to make an approach as if a neutral party that is just asking questions of an ideological "opponent", (say, your typical self-labelled feminist) to lead them to your understanding.

I know this because I've noticed it being used on me. On other social media platforms, I've found myself agreeing with or at least opening up to ideas that were opposite of my worldview because the person talking through it with me approached with zero hostility. It doesn't always work, but it's much more effective than simply launching negative vibes at someone in completely separate echo chamber. So yeah, I think that's something we get wrong a lot.

Sheasheak · 2022-05-30T07:05:45+00:00

I don't think that issues such as women fertility treatment gets recearcerched more than mens matters. Women's fertility treatment helps men too. Men's fertility treatment helps men. There isn't really any point in arguing those fertility matters.

tenchineuro · 2022-05-30T11:12:29+00:00

from the issues i’ve seen brought up, it’s clear that the men here are a minority. i’m from a community where majority of men don’t get married and majority of kids are born out of wedlock, so i know that the custody and divorce arguments presented will probably never resonate with those men on a grand scale. speaking of custody, most cases aren’t handled in family court, and 60% of men do get custody in contested cases. the reality is that there’s a good chunk of men who don’t want to take care of their kids full- or even half-time, and they don’t aggressively pursue custody.

many of the frustrations expressed here seem to be in response to feminism without acknowledging why feminism exists in the first place, and/or the males who supported this system in the first place. it sounds a lot like marriage and family are the perfect institutions as long as women can’t divorce you and take your children. as long as you get to remain king of the castle, it doesn’t matter if she’s unfulfilled, depressed, frustrated, etc..divorce has saved many a woman’s (and child’s) life over the years and i refuse to believe that every woman who files is doing so to get over on a guy. also, considering just how much marriage and family is shoved down women’s throats from birth, i find it hard to believe that women are spending 20-40 years praying to be paired with men only to leave them shortly after for fun. it shouldn’t have to be said, but i know it’ll be brought up, yes there are bad women who want to ruin men’s lives, but the average woman’s throat is full of dick and she doesn’t want to give that up, so if she gets to the point of divorce, perhaps there are other factors at play.

men gatekeep marriage. a woman can’t marry herself or knock herself up. unless you’re 91, majority of the issues presented here existed before you tied the knot or shot the club up, but you risked it anyways. lack of female accountability is always brought up, and i agree, but that doesn’t make males any more accountable.

LucasAngel_ · 2022-05-30T01:54:53+00:00

Misunderstanding and seemingly being afraid of Intersectionality. Avoiding it severely limits the full scope of Men's issues and even leading to some issues being ignored or oversimplified. Not all Men have the same issues and some of us feel ignored.

AspirationsOfFreedom · 2022-05-30T21:33:03+00:00

We are far to few, and the circlejerks are far too few.

BaconCatBug · 2022-05-31T09:01:58+00:00

They think they have a chance to change anything.

Whitified · 2022-05-31T17:19:23+00:00

What does the MRM get wrong?

Why?

pacsatonifil · 2022-06-01T22:06:51+00:00

We should not make it a right or left issue instead of just men’s issues. This needs to be a movement from both sides. Because men are on both sides. People always want to put their personal political spin. That’s a mistake and we need men to get on board. With that said I think it should be men focused. Not masculine women, tomboys, or trans. Though that’s just my opinion.

Title	What does the MRM get wrong?
Author	imextremelymoderate
Upvotes	13
Comments	52
Date	May 30, 2022 1:46 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/v0pgjy/what_does_the_mrm_get_wrong/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-does-the-mrm-get-wrong.1118065 https://theredarchive.com/post/1118065

Comments