Why do you think a lot of men don’t even think about trying to fight hypothetical biological determinants ?

MazerTag · 2022-05-22T05:58:55+00:00

Everything in life is always biological AND cultural. Anyone who tries to tell you differently is pushing politics.

Moist-Quiet-647 · 2022-05-22T15:05:15+00:00

This is why I've been a transhumanist for more than a decade. Transhumanism is all about using science and technology to rise above genetic/biological determinism. It is opposed to both bioconservatism from the right ("genetic inequalities are either a fatality or a good thing and society should be built around them") and denialism from the left ("genetic inequalities are an invention from the right to justify inequalities that are in fact cultural and fixable").

Ironically, the denialism from the left leads to a situation where genetic inequalities are unquestioned and their effects maximized, so exactly what the right wants.

EDIT: misspelling

MelissaMiranti · 2022-05-22T05:10:38+00:00

The term "manosphere" is a way to group together a lot of disparate groups with different ideas, aims, and members in an attempt to smear the best of them by associating them with the worst. It seems like you're talking about "Pick up artists." Would you like to ask them your question?

redgarnetamaranth · 2022-05-22T05:45:47+00:00

My theory for this is that redpillers use biological determinism to justify their dating strategies. If there's nothing you can do about it and it's just how women are wired then it makes it okay to "game the system" and get the upper hand over them since biologically they are just predisposed to do it to you anyway.

You'd think that it would come as a sigh of relief to them to find out that no, women aren't just trying to screw over men and calling the shots due to sperm being cheaper, men do in fact have bargaining power in a relationship and there's incentive for women and men to form meaningful bonds, but they just reject this.

They seemingly go against their own interests but they really don't because it's completely within their interests to perpetuate these false beliefs about how men and women work. FDS does the same thing with patriarchy theory. Since it's a conspiracy there basically isn't an end to it, it serves to justify their behavior in perpetuity since it isn't real to begin with.

Motanul_Negru · 2022-05-22T07:11:57+00:00

Going with the flow of the mating instinct is facile. And if you call it deterministic, and have people believe you, you can even avoid being called a basic bitch for letting it rule you.

Oncefa2 · 2022-05-22T14:46:29+00:00

I think me and you talked about this briefly the other day. I definitely share you concerns at the very least.

I think what we've seen is a push from some groups to define everything about human nature in the context of postmodern social constructs.

And there are some people who either see this as unscientific, or against "common sense".

Maybe not specifically on the grounds that postmodernism itself is invalid, but definitely on the grounds that the specific interpretation that's being pushed is invalid. Including from a lived experiences perspective (which is itself a postmodern interpretation on truth).

Men know that the dating game is rigged against them. This could be social, it could be biological, or it could be both. But there are people trying to say that no, it's not rigged, you're just a misogynist and that's why nobody wants you. So this is where the backlash comes from. And a lot of it directed against the social interpretation from a biological perspective. The idea that "obviously men and women are different" (a lived experiences truth) gets justified on the grounds that evolution is scientific so therefore "my opinion is scientific".

However, I think an equally valid critique would be about how the specific social interpretations being pushed are also wrong.

I find myself agreeing with a of the postmodern inspired logic being pushed, but I don't think these interpretations go far enough and properly contextualize all of society, including the lived experiences of men. Like sure gender norms harm women but they equally harm men, and we are in practice ignoring this.

Many of these gender norms are also relevant to dating. In fact the power dichotomy in the dating world probably leads to gender norms in other areas of life. For example, if men are encouraged to spend money on woman to be romantically successful, what effect do you think this has on the wage gap, and gender stereotypes in employment? Men may actually be better employees than women, but this is only because dating pressures make them focus on their careers a lot more than women. And this is just one example of where you can take this while remaining purely inside of the liberal "social construct" side of things.

BloomingBrains · 2022-05-24T05:38:04+00:00

I get the feeling that a lot of the "don't hate the player, hate the game" types don't really hate the game.

Oh, they may pretend to fatalistically and regretfully endeavor to master it only because "they'res no other option, man". But the truth is, they actually love the game precisely because they're good at it. They know they couldn't compete with the rest of us in a non-biologically determinant game. So they apologize for a system that creates an artificial advantage, even though human society has mostly surpassed the need for it. They really see sex as validation of their manhood or some such nonsense and maybe on some level realize how weak that makes them seem, so they cover that up by pretending to hate the system.

reverbiscrap · 2022-05-22T12:27:43+00:00

Leftists have been trying to fight those

hypothetical biological determinants

for decades, and soundly failed, because they absolutely exist, for all parties involved, and trying to pretend they do not factor in has led to awful relationship and mating prospects, but only for MEN.

OP, Kevin Samuels (rip) had a call in show where, for 2.5 years, he spoke to an average of 3-4 women (of different races, ethnicity, nationalities, around the world) a night, 5-6 nights a week, invariably asking what they wanted from a man they would marry.

The vast majority wanted a tall, wealthy (10% of all earners or better), heterosexual man (bisexuality was almost always an immediate hard pass) who was devoutly monogamous, able and willing to finance a life of luxury for her, as a stay at home mother (regardless of what her level of education or profession was) and her children. The host of the show later stated that 95% of callers wanted virtually the same man.

Even here, with the men who say they want to dispense with traditional male gender roles, you need to understand those roles, why they are and how they came about. I would surmise that none of them would deny there is a biological component and imperative behind those gender roles, for men. I have yet to see much close examination on biological imperatives on the part of women when it comes to relationships until the last 5 or 6 years. Before that, any attempt to talk about it would be cast down as misogyny outright.

I would broach that most women are not aware their own subconscious imperatives, how they shape their interactions with men, and thus can neither understand nor deconstruct them. As in the modern western world, no man can tell a woman to truly do something she does not like, and it is still the burden of men, in general, to pursue women romantically, the onus is on men to understand why women do, and work with that information.

I was one of those kids who grew up in the 90s who was told being nice and respectful to women, and, like Tupac, was astounded when I was told to my face that I was 'too nice, too SOFT'. The feminist left ideas of courtship have failed, and left a generation and a half of men wondering what they did wrong, with no answers from the left (I personally suspect this was not an accident).

Tl;dr men are being told en masse what used to be the knowledge gatekept by men who were successful dating women and pimps (wouldn't you know) because current day men have no idea what they are doing, women are getting upset because modern logic says you aren't supposed to question a woman's standards and desires.

LakiL_ · 2022-05-22T19:32:49+00:00

Fatalism is the tool of people who like to paint themselves as victims.

2022-05-22T05:29:39+00:00

In a general sense, I think the overuse of biological determinism is tempting because it soothes the angst many men (and women) feel about the isolation, confusion and lack of power we feel we have in society, and the increasing indifference our top-heavy societal institutions seem to have to our concerns. Instead of teasing out and navigating through all that mess, it's easier to blame everything on biology.

The popularity of Doomerism (as opposed to a more realistic understanding of civilisational decline) comes from a similar fatalistic place. If everything is going to hell suddenly and nothing can be done, then it takes the weight of responsibility off my shoulders.

I think it also has a special appeal for a certain kind of mindset (and it may be that this mindset is statistically more attractive to men) that prizes "hard science" over "soft science" and the Humanities.

EDIT: To make a distinction between gambling addiction and lack of dating success, the former doesn't affect everyone and the solution seems simpler (even if it is difficult for many) - just stop.

Plus, the perceived moral element is different. Gambling addiction is something a "bad", "irresponsible" person does. But lack of dating success happens to guys who see themselves as "good" and "responsible".

RockmanXX · 2022-05-22T15:07:29+00:00

It often feels like the fatalism is a core feature of the endeavour

I mean yea, they're just trying to rationalize it as something beyond their control, so that they can eschew any personal responsibility to make things better. Its just a way for Men to cope with the harsh reality, its similar to how Male Feminists say that men's issues are all self-inflicted and shrug their shoulders.

lostintraanslation · 2022-05-22T22:50:42+00:00

Yes, and I see the same biological determinism that said women were inherently less intelligent than men on average, being peddled by women online as to why men are inherently worse in leadership, worse in dating, etc. Biological determinism itself is dismissive and makes me mistrust people that use it in arguments.

Mustbeaight · 2022-05-22T15:22:49+00:00

What do you want me to fight? It doesn’t matter what I do. Women will still be attracted to what they’re attracted to and unfortunately what women are attracted to is like the polar opposite of me. I can scream as loud about how unfair it is but at the end of the day women can’t help it. It’s impossible for any to be attracted to someone like me and that’s biological. It is what it is

Zinziberruderalis · 2022-05-24T09:10:51+00:00

I think you're attributing a lot of beliefs to members of this sub that they don't hold.

Biological determinism is popular when it is socially conformist or affirms personal preferences. Self-restraint and self-control are not in tune with modern popular culture. Of course many things are biological, but that does not mean they are unchangeable.

Title	Why do you think a lot of men don’t even think about trying to fight hypothetical biological determinants ?
Author	BadGyalElise
Upvotes	23
Comments	73
Date	May 22, 2022 4:50 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/uv3t3n/why_do_you_think_a_lot_of_men_dont_even_think/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/why-do-you-think-a-lot-of-men-dont-even-think.1119017 https://theredarchive.com/post/1119017

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