Male privilege hm? | MensRights

NLioness · 2019-07-13T09:22:52+00:00

Crosspost "So apparently it is possible to win with Karen" from /r/FuckYouKaren:Posted by ButtEater344 | 12 July 2019 |...

[–]Yromemtnatsisrep 10 points11 points12 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]tenchineuro 8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

True, but completely academic.

While they have not put anyone in prison for awhile, the rest of the penalties are not academic at all. This is completely false.

https://www.sss.gov/Registration/Why-Register/Benefits-and-Penalties
Registration is the Law
Register to be Eligible for Benefits and Programs Linked to Registration —
A young man who fails to register with Selective Service may be ineligible for opportunities that may be important to his future. He must register to be eligible for federal student financial aid, state-funded student financial aid in many states, most federal employment, some state employment, security clearance for contractors, job training under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (formerly known as the Workforce Investment Act), and U.S. citizenship for immigrant men.
Penalties for Failing to Register
Failing to register or comply with the Military Selective Service Act is a felony punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 or a prison term of up to five years, or a combination of both. Also, a person who knowingly counsels, aids, or abets another to fail to comply with the Act is subject to the same penalties.
If a man fails to register, or provides Selective Service with evidence that he is exempt from the registration requirement, after receiving Selective Service reminder and/or compliance mailings, his name is referred to the Department of Justice for possible investigation and prosecution for his failure to register as required by the Act. For clarification, if a man is exempt from registering with the Selective Service System, his name is not forwarded to the Department of Justice. The federal law stipulates that names are to be submitted to the Department of Justice annually.
The more immediate penalty is if a man fails to register before turning 26 years old, even if he is not tried or prosecuted, he may find that some doors are permanently closed.

It has been irrelevant to combat casualties for over 40 years.

This is irrelevant to what I responded to.

[–]PlastIconoclastic 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RoryTate 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

True, but completely academic.

This type of trite and dishonest trivialization of what is in reality a nuanced and complex matter reminds me of the next line of defense for those who downplay the draft: the argument that one can just be a conscientious objector, so why make such a big deal out of such a minor inconvenience? Never mind that this rare status is only granted to those who can prove (i.e. provide documentation showing) a "strong moral and religious belief" against killing someone (yes, secular humanists are SOL), and even in the handful of cases where it is able to be established a conscientious objector is still forced to serve in other ways and is often exposed to deadly and dangerous conditions as a result.

This dismissive behaviour honestly only displays the shallowness of the person making the argument rather than downplaying the actual problem itself.

[–]RoryTate 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Serving is a completely voluntary choice.

Your naive and short-sighted comment really reminds me of those old voiceovers on nature documentaries, where the narrator would say: "And from the back of the pack, suddenly an old wildebeest past his prime comes forward, and bravely sacrifices himself by throwing his body into the river filled with crocodiles, so that the rest of the herd can cross safely downstream." This was the narrative that biologists actually used to explain this behaviour once upon a time. Then, in later years, when the cameras actually watched what was happening in the back, that "brave" wildebeest was actually being violently pushed and pressured forward, until -- panicked and beaten to the point of death -- it tried in desperation to escape the cruelty of its fellow animals and ran straight into the waiting jaws of a different death.

A man serving and fighting in a war is exactly like that suffering wildebeest. If we were to see his entire life leading up to his death, it would be filled with untold pressures, from the promises of women telling him that the idea of a man sacrificing himself is attractive to them, to words from his parents, teachers, and authority figures telling him to "do something with his life", to shame and social ostracization should he ever be seen as causing or allowing a woman to come to harm, to being brainwashed into believing that he was only an adult man once he completed the biggest and most difficult of trials, to seeing other men ridiculed as "man-children" for not living up to society's expectations and deperately wanting to avoid that fate of being laughed at, etc etc etc.

Don't fool yourself into thinking the draft ever went away. It still exists because the reasons that it always existed in the first place never disappeared. When invaders are approaching and are seen on the horizon, who from a fleeing family is going to be expected to sacrifice themselves so that the others might have a chance to escape? Will it be a random coin flip, or will the man be the one who dies? Of course it's going to be the man. Don't blind yourself to reality by ever thinking otherwise.

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[–]CatusCetus 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

His comment does not seem at all naïve, insensitive, or trolling. Just off-topic.
If he will allow me to put words into his mouth for a moment. He wasn't commenting on the difficulties people who commit suicide go through, nor trying to belittle their problems. He wasn't arguing against the fact that make up 80% of suicides, nor that this is a terrible statistic.
The only thing he was pointing out was the syntaxial error of "suicide victims" should have been written as "people who commit suicide" or simply "suicides".

I am no more a victim of suicide than I am a victim of going for a jog. And before you rail on me for the insensitivity of my comment please note: SUICIDE IS HORRIBLE, and going for a jog is not. But both of these things are the results of my own actions, not the cause of them. This is where the syntax error lies.

[–]PlastIconoclastic 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]CatusCetus 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Again, these are causes, and suicide is the result. You would not say victim of killed herself, killing herself is the result of what caused her to kill herself (and I'm not trying to belittle any situation that might cause you to kill yourself). I would use the term victim of depression not victim of suicide, because depression is the cause and suicide is the result.

And you are correct in your assumption that I would like to see less victims and less suicides in the world. I think death in all situations is a terrible thing, and I'm sorry if this gives you the impression that I'm victim blaming. I do not blame people for the situations that lead them to suicide. These are horrible situations that we need to provide more support for.

I'm not all that invested in arguing with you over this because it is essentially just an argument about semantics and we both agree on the main point, that suicide is bad, and the point that the OP posted, that 80% of men committing suicide is a terrible thing. If you'd like to continue defending your position you may, but these are my two cents on the subject.

[–]PlastIconoclastic 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]fredlovesyou4free -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]RoryTate 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

That pain may lead you to suicide but you remain a victim of the pain, not the suicide. I'm discussing syntax.

And I can tell you that I am currently standing at a point ten meters north of the north pole. Or I can say that the next thing I say is true, but the last thing I said was false. Or I can produce many other strange artifacts of language that are linguistically and grammatically correct but have no meaning whatsoever. They are neither correct nor incorrect, true or false.

Or, in other words, verbal language is limited, inconsistent, and ultimately insufficient, and pretending that it perfectly represents an event so far as to argue semantics when trying to understand that event, is a complete waste of time. Don't get caught up in the fool's paradise of the immutability of language.

[–]fredlovesyou4free 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]RoryTate 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What fools paradise? I asked how one can be a victim of suicide and I got a bunch of crap about a very small few of the potential causes of suicide (that don't always lead to suicide). Your comment drifts us even further away.

And if I asked you to give me the coordinates (latitude and longitude) of the spot on the Earth I was standing when I walked ten meters north of the North Pole, what would your answer be?

Your question falls squarely into the type of question that seems reasonable at first glance, but falls apart into meaningless when actually considered and parsed out fully. I would recommend reading Noam Chomsky's Syntactic Structures and consider the classic sentence "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously" to get introduced to the concept of a sentence that is grammatically correct, but semantically nonsensical.

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[–]Gadaeus1 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

something that is given to you that you have not earned.

The times I encounter it characterized that way are mostly from opponents of the word's usage in perceiving it as a personal attack because such people feel it undermines their own accomplishments.

The big theme with people talking about privilege is one of understanding struggles unique to other groups of people. It's not about accusing others of being unfair.

Im probably going to be crucified for posting this here but here it goes.

https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/ (please take the time to read this in full. If nothing else you'll have a better understanding of a concept you oppose)

I see no reason why this concept can't go both ways. The lizard has privilege and can even withstand certain situations the dog would surely perish from.

Just to be clear im not in this sub to antagonize. Im here to support men's rights. I just think concepts such as privilege can work for us in the same way it works for feminists and gives a tool to oppse the particularly nasty ones.

[+]fm369 -18 points-17 points-16 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]problem_redditor 15 points16 points17 points 7 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Some of these are sorta due to the stereotypical things that guys are supposed to be and do, and all of those charts are like that because of society

And that makes a difference how?

I would also argue that the way we view both men and women is partially due to the evolution of our brains, not society. For example the expectation on men to be strong, stoic, uncomplaining and to take on risk and harm to protect women and children (thus leading to their higher combat fatalities and suicide rates for example) is ingrained into our psyche.

Also some of these are due to the fact that females are pushed out of those certain roles like industrial jobs

Pushed out of these roles, or actively not wanting to do these jobs? Industrial jobs are generally dangerous and back-breaking, and women on average are higher in risk-aversion than men which means that they may opt to take on safer work even if these jobs are lower paying.

I don't agree that men and women would make the same choices if not for socialisation. Men and women are inherently different in a huge amount of ways, both physically and mentally, and it leads to a lot of different choices between the genders.

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[–]tenchineuro 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Yea it’s optional to sign up for...

https://www.sss.gov/Registration/Why-Register/Benefits-and-Penalties
Registration is the Law
Register to be Eligible for Benefits and Programs Linked to Registration —
A young man who fails to register with Selective Service may be ineligible for opportunities that may be important to his future. He must register to be eligible for federal student financial aid, state-funded student financial aid in many states, most federal employment, some state employment, security clearance for contractors, job training under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (formerly known as the Workforce Investment Act), and U.S. citizenship for immigrant men.
Penalties for Failing to Register
Failing to register or comply with the Military Selective Service Act is a felony punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 or a prison term of up to five years, or a combination of both. Also, a person who knowingly counsels, aids, or abets another to fail to comply with the Act is subject to the same penalties.
If a man fails to register, or provides Selective Service with evidence that he is exempt from the registration requirement, after receiving Selective Service reminder and/or compliance mailings, his name is referred to the Department of Justice for possible investigation and prosecution for his failure to register as required by the Act. For clarification, if a man is exempt from registering with the Selective Service System, his name is not forwarded to the Department of Justice. The federal law stipulates that names are to be submitted to the Department of Justice annually.
The more immediate penalty is if a man fails to register before turning 26 years old, even if he is not tried or prosecuted, he may find that some doors are permanently closed.

You and I have a different understanding off what the word 'optional' means.

[–]problem_redditor 8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Which was abolished in 1973...

You're only talking about the US, not the rest of the world. As of now the US military is all volunteer but selective service exists - only for men.

https://www.usa.gov/selective-service

A draft is the mandatory enrollment of individuals into the armed forces. The United States military has been all-volunteer since 1973. But the government can still reinstate the draft in case of a national emergency. The Selective Service System is the agency that registers men and is responsible for running a draft.

Almost all men age 18-25 who are U.S. citizens or are immigrants living in the U.S. are required to be registered with Selective Service. U.S. law calls for citizens to register within 30 days of turning 18 and immigrants to register within 30 days of arriving in the U.S.

Men in the U.S. on student, visitor, or diplomatic visas and women are not required to register. For other exemptions and for transgender people, see the Who Must Register chart.

In the US young men are the only ones who are required to be registered with Selective Service because they will be the ones who will be drafted in the case of a national emergency. And if they do not register:

If you are required to register and you don’t, you will not be eligible for federal student aid, federal job training, or a federal job. You may be prosecuted and face a fine of up to $250,000 and/or jail time of up to five years. If you’re an immigrant to the U.S., you will not be eligible for citizenship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

And when it comes to the rest of the world? Algeria, Angola, Austria, Azerbaijan, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Cyprus, Denmark, Egypt, Estonia, Greece, Iran, South Korea, Kuwait, Libya, Lithuania, Mexico, Qatar, Russia, Singapore, Switzerland, Syria, Thailand, UAE, etc, etc still have the male-only draft and some of which have current ongoing conscription.

I'd say that's not an insignificant number of countries.

[–]tenchineuro 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TibortheChechen 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Male privilege hm?
Author	NLioness
Upvotes	546
Comments	71
Date	July 13, 2019 9:22 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ccnf3e/male_privilege_hm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/male-privilege-hm.1205615 https://theredarchive.com/post/1205615

Crosspost "So apparently it is possible to win with Karen" from /r/FuckYouKaren:

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