A feminist argument against mens rights: men are oppressed because of other men.

somirion · 2024-02-02T04:17:46+00:00

An argument against racism - black people are main demographic of people killing black people, so we should not care about black people killed.

63daddy · 2024-02-02T03:40:38+00:00

It doesn’t make sense. Their argument is based on nonsensical patriarchy theory.

Politicians pass laws disadvantaging men largely due to feminist lobbying efforts and to win the women’s vote.

That said we are seeing far too many men who are being indoctrinated to believe men deserve to be discriminated against.

Vegetable_Ad1732 · 2024-02-02T03:35:44+00:00

The following are probably mostly done by other women; slut-shaming, fat shaming, fashion shaming, women interrupt other women talking more than men do, other things I can't think of.

Angryasfk · 2024-02-02T04:47:39+00:00

It’s more feminist double standards (I know, shocking isn’t it).

Men have issues: it’s “men doing it to themselves” (that’s when they don’t flat out deny it). They endlessly complain about stuff like women’s fashion, “slut-shaming” and various other things that are primarily women doing it to other women. But women’s issues are obviously caused by men, or “patriarchy” if they want to be coy about blaming men. So those ones aren’t “women doing it to themselves”.

Very convenient isn’t it.

AccomplishedMovie804 · 2024-02-02T03:45:09+00:00

Feminism isn't about equal rights. They have had equal rights for quite some time. Feminism today is about women superiority. They want men to be beneath them like "women have been for all of history". Just insane.

WrongdoerWilling7657 · 2024-02-02T04:37:31+00:00

The patriarchy dude. That's the answer (excuse) to everything, except it only allows women to escape accountability, not men.

iainmf · 2024-02-02T05:42:54+00:00

The reason it sounds off is that they are not giving you the whole argument.

It's like saying "Pineapples are not native to Italy, so they should not be on pizza". That's not an argument, that's just stating a fact and an opinion.

I've found it helpful for my understanding to write out arguments in a formal style.

Here's an argument that feminists might be using:

Men's oppression is caused by men;
Political movements are only needed when groups don't have the power themselves;
Therefore we don't need a men's rights movement.

Of course it's not a good argument because how can a group be oppressed and also have power to not be oppressed. But once you write it down formally, you can see where to attack it more easily.

AbysmalDescent · 2024-02-02T05:13:34+00:00

Feminists are just completely unwilling to consider that women have power, influence and agency in any given culture, and that women can be complicit or responsible in many of the issues men face, so of course all they can do is interpret any of these issues as "men oppressing men".

serious-history-1861 · 2024-02-02T03:36:02+00:00

Does that resurrect the dead 19 year old who got drafted?

Overfed_Venison · 2024-02-02T09:53:49+00:00

So, I see this argument sometimes. It's typically a feminist-aligned argument, and I think you need to understand some feminist theory to really unpack it.

So, if I think of it from a feminist perspective, this argument is operating off a lot of unsaid assumptions. What some people mean by this is not what other people mean, but I think it's something like this...

First, I think what this is trying to say is essentially "Men's problems are caused by other men, and therefore are the fault of the patriarchy." Patriarchy theory is the feminist idea that society is set up by men at the expense of women systematically, and thus men are the cause of these issues. By saying "Men's problems are caused by other men," what they are really arguing for is the existence of a patriarchy as a root cause of all these issues - and thus, an argument for a feminist opposition to it.

Thus, perhaps the idea being stated here is that if you simply understood that men were at the cause of issues, you would be standing with them in a desire to destroy the patriarchy.

Now, a big part of this relies on the assumption that patriarchy theory is inherently correct and logical, and that feminist theory is the answer to it. Which, of course, is... Well, dubious at best.

Second, a lot of radical feminist arguments assume an inherent solidarity between men and an inherent solidarity between women, and a rivalry between the genders. I think there is an assumption by the person presenting this argument that talking about men's issues is inherently a threat against women's rights and feminism as a whole because it champions a solidarity between men. And, of course, a 'male space' is a dangerous enemy to feminism (Because of the aforementioned assumption of a rivalry between genders, you see - male spaces are supposed to breed anti-woman behaviour.)

Thus, from that, it's role as an argument is to instill the idea that even if men are oppressed in some way, men are still the central "oppressor class" who's spaces as the cause of sexism issues.

Again, this is an argument which assumes patriarchy theory is inherently correct and logical. And it misses that the patriarchy, if you accept that such a thing exists in the first place, is invisible and comes from broad societal norms and is not controlled by random men.

Third is it's use as a dismissal tactic. If an issue is ultimately the fault of men - and thus the patriarchy - it can be dismissed and not discussed because feminism is already dealing with that. It is, from a radical feminist perspective, a great inconvenience to admit that men have issues; it is much simpler to assume it is the patriarchy's fault in some nebulous way than to acknowledge that there are exceptions or even outright flaws in the theory.

TL;DR: I think this argument is actually trying to say "You are suffering, and that is the fault of the patriarchy, so you should be a feminist instead of an MRA"

...But I may be wrong and this could just be an argument people make because they've seen other people make it and have not thought it through.

amey_wemy · 2024-02-02T09:59:27+00:00

Just call it "internalized misandry"

denvercaniac · 2024-02-02T15:50:50+00:00

Funny thing about men holding other men accountable: when do women ever do that to other women?

Vaudeville_Clown · 2024-02-02T11:38:25+00:00

It doesn't matter what they say here. It's all semantics. Meanwhile, they are notorious for getting in the f**king way when men seek justice for whatever has hurt or oppressed them.

For instance: Universities. Right now, many men open (successful mostly) discrimination suits against many colleges and universities since their applications were scrapped in favor of non-male applicants with lower grades. Which side do you think feminists take here?

Men on men violence/crime This problem is real, but feminists are notoriously against us locking up dangerous men for longer prison sentences. They act disruptive towards police enforcement as well as justice systems. Shoplifting becomes decriminalised in practice in many American states, which threaten the livelihood of many shop owners, male and female alike.

Social/culture Every time a misandric message appears in culture or is spoken by a person, we're not exactly allowed to put our foot down. Supposedly, we ought to cushion the blow so much it looks like some ineffectively mild criticism. When we boycott the sorry ass of a brand or franchise over this, we're always taking things "too far".

In essence, I don't care whether they think the onus lies on men, women or all to address it, but I demand they at least stay out of the way.

Until then, feminism is in fact positioned as an enemy of Men's Rights.

Ok-Yogurtcloset7394 · 2024-02-02T05:34:40+00:00

modern day feminists can't look beyond two thinks. gender and ethnicity.

WeEatBabies · 2024-02-02T10:48:52+00:00

For the past 30 years men faced more hiring discrimination than women, and for the past 30 years, feminists granted themselves affirmation actions on top of the discrimination men were facing, so yeah, feminism oppresses men. https://www.instagram.com/p/C2j\_bMrtuC0/?img\_index=6

Same with university seats, for the past 20 years women held more uni. seats, and they still got affirmative actions on top of that!

And here you can learn about the Duluth Model : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpPt6uqHapM

Joe-Amico · 2024-02-02T20:49:13+00:00

Your expecting logic?

ManUpManDown · 2024-02-02T22:03:22+00:00

My response to this argument is to ask if they feel that way about black-on-black crime.

Miserable-Willow6105 · 2024-02-02T11:46:14+00:00

I used to think this is a valid point until I realized they are not going to assist even though this is kinda patriarchal.

For the fuck's sake, neither women nor men are a monolith, and you can be oppressed as a man without oppressing anyone.

New-Entertainer7294 · 2024-02-02T05:38:11+00:00

any specific arguments they use? How are men oppressed?

blackmamba4554 · 2024-02-02T14:34:24+00:00

Partly it's true. Lots of men (especially heterosexist men) hate other men. But women are also responsible. Lots of women support military slavery (conscription), unequal age of retirement, etc.

So, both men and women oppress men. It means the society oppresses men.

xraay9 · 2024-02-02T08:28:38+00:00

They are correct to a point but it also implicates women. Powerful men do control other men with the assistance of - and to the benefit of - women. That's how it's always been and feminism is simply that dynamic on steroids.

SkGuarnieri · 2024-02-02T11:16:52+00:00

I forget which, but this type of "argument" is pretty much an informal fallacy

Not that pointing out a fallacy ever works considering people tend to argue in bad faith, but it is what it is

buttslapper999 · 2024-02-02T14:00:25+00:00

Even if we assume men’s rights issues are caused by other men, it still doesn’t justify sexism.

lemons7472 · 2024-02-02T17:33:36+00:00

I hate arguments like this because it purposely removes women out of the table who cause any trouble for men, like supporting laws that give lesser sentencing to women, advocating against draft, slandering and threating anyone who even dares to make a male abuse shelter, actual victims themselves of abuse or violence, BY women, which feminist tend to ignore or defend those perps! Like the other comments said, the argument is based on patriarchy theory, where all men are all at fault and women are at none fault ever.

XBlackAppleX · 2024-02-02T20:23:37+00:00

Its simply an argument for that men aint teaming up into a secret group against women because they dont stick that strong together as we can see. Men will see other men as enemys the same as women do. Thats why male life is so lonely. Thats never an excuse to treat males even worse as a woman. Women even sometimes encourage rivalry between men. They dont seem to mind it that much they dont even want to talk about it as we can see

skllyskullstyle · 2024-02-02T20:34:37+00:00

The only way men are oppressing other men is because for feminism and simping.

Otherwise, no. Patriarchy doesn't exist. It's more of a matriarchy.

Stops arguing with feminists they do the exact same thing over and over like if they are unaware.

skllyskullstyle · 2024-02-02T20:38:11+00:00

Just to let you know, these feminists that say that men cause all the issues and oppress other men, are contradicting other feminists denominations. Like a lot. And notice how they don't know it.

ralphswanson · 2024-02-02T23:25:43+00:00

This is based on the feminist mantra that women are constantly powerless, so all problems must be caused by men. This is very misogynist. It degrades women as being weak and irresponsible. It's also blatantly false. Women are a strong force in every society and in most every family. They are 56% of the electorate, so decide who gets elected. Naturally, sometimes individual women are subject to injustice which requires systemic change. Same thing with men. Men's Rights hopes to changes these injustices to men. Any equality-seeking person would support this.

eldred2 · 2024-02-03T00:31:59+00:00

Ask them if FGM is okay if a women handles the knife.

HouseboyTrainer · 2024-02-04T09:01:43+00:00

It just amazes me how everybody doesn't realizes the core reason men are oppressed is the laws and courts unfair to men. Before all the unfair laws were passed men just walked around feminism practically like it wasn't there. Women got pissed that men did this hence the laws unfair to men.

Title	A feminist argument against mens rights: men are oppressed because of other men.
Author	Important-Back-9545
Upvotes	195
Comments	43
Date	February 2, 2024 3:13 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1agtsxa/a_feminist_argument_against_mens_rights_men_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-feminist-argument-against-mens-rights-men-are.1244393 https://theredarchive.com/post/1244393

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